The Exodus! Did it Really Happen?

[POI]

The Bible claims an Exodus took place. Many state it was not an actual event. Since the Bible makes a positive claim, in that an 'Exodus" took place, do we have positive evidence to support the claim?

For Debate:

1. Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence? If so, what?

2. If it should turn out that the Exodus did not take place, does this fact sway the Christian believer's position at all? Or, does it not matter one way or another?

[Clownboat]

The Bible claims an Exodus took place. Many state it was not an actual event. Since the Bible makes a positive claim, in that an 'Exodus" took place, do we have positive evidence to support the claim? Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence? If so, what?

For Debate:

If it should turn out that the Exodus did not take place, does this fact sway the Christian believer's position at all? Or, does it not matter one way or another?

There need not ever have been an Exodus, Garden of Eden or a Global Flood. Faith in said beliefs is all that is required. You know, just like believing religious claims from other religions.
Telling... no?

[TRANSPONDER]

The Bible claims an Exodus took place. Many state it was not an actual event. Since the Bible makes a positive claim, in that an 'Exodus" took place, do we have positive evidence to support the claim?

For Debate:

1. Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence? If so, what?

2. If it should turn out that the Exodus did not take place, does this fact sway the Christian believer's position at all? Or, does it not matter one way or another?

It's rather another elephant in the room that of whether the OT matters. After all, at need the Christians can chuck the OT in the Bin as 'Jesus made everything new', though that doesn't stop the Commandments being set up in the place where it should not. Despite Jesus repeatedly saying that doing something worthwhile is of more importance than Sabbath Church attendance.

But there are knock on effects too. Apart from prophecy, if Eden is no more than Myth, whence Evil? Why is it our fault? What are we guilty of? What should we be punished for? Why the heck was the crucifixion even needed - apart from the Romans getting shot of a nuisance? So does the Exodus have any significance for Christians, apart from flaccid attempts to make it disprove slavery it seems? Well, on the face of it it doesn't matter whether the Exodus really happened or whether it didn't, except Passover. If the night of the long streaks never happened, Passover means nothing, and if so, the significance of Jesus doing anything on the Passover loses any point at all.

True, John is rather absurd for having every darn thing Jesus did happening on Passover, but the Big One - Holy week, that has to be Passover for the divine magick of Paschal sacrifice to even work, even though it was all probably happening at the feast of Tabernacles anyway.

[1213]

The Bible claims an Exodus took place. Many state it was not an actual event. Since the Bible makes a positive claim, in that an 'Exodus" took place, do we have positive evidence to support the claim?

For Debate:

1. Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence? If so, what?

2. If it should turn out that the Exodus did not take place, does this fact sway the Christian believer's position at all? Or, does it not matter one way or another?

I recommend people to read Dr. Lennart Möller's The Exodus Case, I think it shows nicely evidence for the Exodus.

[TRANSPONDER]

The Bible claims an Exodus took place. Many state it was not an actual event. Since the Bible makes a positive claim, in that an 'Exodus" took place, do we have positive evidence to support the claim?

For Debate:

1. Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence? If so, what?

2. If it should turn out that the Exodus did not take place, does this fact sway the Christian believer's position at all? Or, does it not matter one way or another?

I recommend people to read Dr. Lennart Möller's The Exodus Case, I think it shows nicely evidence for the Exodus.

Garbage. Apart from sending us off to read a book rather than posting the case yourself, all that Dr. Lennart Möller's The Exodus Case, does is assume it's all true and try to fit it into known geography and history. The fact is that Bible apologists have come up with all kinds of scenarios for who the Pharaoh was (Ramesses II being a popular choice) and posters here may have seen the the thing that made me doubt what I had always been willing to suppose happened in some form or another even if it had some mythology mixed in. Since you apparently haven't, here it is: Moses supposedly led his people into Sinai to avoid the 'Land of the Philistines' (13. 17) where there was war. That dates the Exodus until later than the time the Philistines were even settled there, after the times of Ramesses III. So that is later than Ramesses the II or Tuthmosis II or any of the popular choices. But most problematical of all, it is later than the time Israel existed and a stele of Merneptah, Ramesses II's son, mentions Israel during a campaign to Canaan.

Archaeology supports this, Finkelstein arguing that the early Israelites appeared in the hills to the northeast of Canaan and didn't move into the plain along with rival tribes,Moab,m Ammon and Edom until the 11th c BC.

Once doubt about the possibility of an Exodus as described raised question whether it could be a made - up story, it was noticed that the story of Moses sounded similar to the story of Sargon of Akkad who was found in the bulrushes like Moses. We are already looking at borrowings from Babylonian material. I also suggest that this, like Genesis, represented two origin stories for the Hebrews and were written during the exile when they were struggling to keep their separate identity. It would be quite possible for the writers of Genesis and Exodus to do another borrowing, from records of the expulsion of the Hyksos who had some kings with Hebrew - sounding names, including a Yussuf, significantly enough, and rather than Moses leading hem out of Egypt to Canaan, it was Ahmose kicking them out of Egypt into Canaan.

This is all a bit light and arguable, but it is evidence to make one doubt and question. What evidence is there for the Exodus? None. In all the efforts to link the Exodus with actual history, the evidence has been ignored or dismissed (like efforts to argue that the Philistines existed before the historical evidence shows they even existed) and piffling attempts to ascribe the governmental decisions of a Pharaoh to Joseph or the 'tempest'papyrus to the plagues of Egypt. Nothing by way of any real evidence apart from it being in the Bible, and forget about Wyatt's pseudo -archaeology. Oh yes,and that fellow who tried to make a Hyksos seal represent the 12 tribes of israel. That is Bible apologetics, not archaeology.

The only real argument against my little construct (which until recently I haven't seen anywhere else) is that it could have been written later, so the reference to the Philistines was anachronistic. But then one still has to ask why the Hebrews went to Sinai at all? Egypt ruled Canaan, most of the time, and there would be nothing to stop them going that way.

There could be a nice little story about Moses convincing Pharaoh Amenhotep IV to believe in one god and being able to conquer the Canaanites because the Pharaoh was neglecting political matters in favour of preaching his monotheistic religion at the time, but I'll let someone else make something of that.

[POI]

The Bible claims an Exodus took place. Many state it was not an actual event. Since the Bible makes a positive claim, in that an 'Exodus" took place, do we have positive evidence to support the claim?

For Debate:

1. Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence? If so, what?

2. If it should turn out that the Exodus did not take place, does this fact sway the Christian believer's position at all? Or, does it not matter one way or another?

I recommend people to read Dr. Lennart Möller's The Exodus Case, I think it shows nicely evidence for the Exodus.

I'm not asking for book recommendations. This is a debate forum. Please provide the evidence(s) which support the Exodus claim? We are not going to do your homework for you.

[TRANSPONDER]

The Bible claims an Exodus took place. Many state it was not an actual event. Since the Bible makes a positive claim, in that an 'Exodus" took place, do we have positive evidence to support the claim?

For Debate:

1. Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence? If so, what?

2. If it should turn out that the Exodus did not take place, does this fact sway the Christian believer's position at all? Or, does it not matter one way or another?

I recommend people to read Dr. Lennart Möller's The Exodus Case, I think it shows nicely evidence for the Exodus.

I'm not asking for book recommendations. This is a debate forum. Please provide the evidence(s) which support the Exodus claim? We are not going to do your homework for you.

Indeed. One persistent irritation on my previous forum was Bible apologists never making a proper case in a post but slinging a lot of links to books and websites we were supposed to research for them. The Mods (if they felt like it) would sling them off the site if they kept doing it.

[1213]

I'm not asking for book recommendations. This is a debate forum. Please provide the evidence(s) which support the Exodus claim? We are not going to do your homework for you.

Sorry, I don't have the book right now. But, maybe I can give some of the evidence later this week.

[Tcg]

I'm not asking for book recommendations. This is a debate forum. Please provide the evidence(s) which support the Exodus claim? We are not going to do your homework for you.

Sorry, I don't have the book right now. But, maybe I can give some of the evidence later this week.

Wait! You claim to have evidence then admit that you don't? This is one of the most amusing claims I've ever read here. It's like being in 3rd grade and having a fellow student claim their dog ate their homework. Oh boy!


Tcg

[POI]

I'm not asking for book recommendations. This is a debate forum. Please provide the evidence(s) which support the Exodus claim? We are not going to do your homework for you.

Sorry, I don't have the book right now. But, maybe I can give some of the evidence later this week.

Aces

I shall patiently await this evidence