Thou Shalt Not Kill? Or is it Murder?

[boatsnguitars]

We've often seen Christians defend their lust for killing (either in war, or the death penalty, or when calling to rid the world of gay people, witches, atheists, or simply wanting to nuke Islamic countries), or defending Jesus's promise to come back and start massacring all the unworthy, or defending Yahweh's genocidal rampages.

The conversation is like this:

Atheist: I thought "Thou Shalt Not Kill?" How can you be for this killing?
Christian: No! You stupid moron! The translation is "Thou Shalt Not MURDER", you ignorant twat. What? Are you for murder, you evil, reprobate?!"
Atheist: Well, you have certainly hoisted me by my own petard, fine sir, and I deserve the vicious ridicule you have so un-judgmentally beset upon me!"

But, wait. Murder is a legal term. Murder is defined by the State. In fact, different States (both States in the USA, but also countries).

In some countries it is legal to kill gay people. In some countries Honor Killing is legal.

It would not be murder to kill ones child for embarrassing you in some countries.

Did God not know this when he inspired this line? Wouldn't it make more sense to say "Kill" and simply stop all killing? But that wouldn't satisfy the patriarchy's lust to kill, does it?

Seems to me, this is an obvious case of Christians trying to make the Bible sound better than it is, without noticing it makes it worse.


Thoughts?

[otseng]

Christian: No! You stupid moron! The translation is "Thou Shalt Not MURDER", you ignorant twat. What? Are you for murder, you evil, reprobate?!"

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[Miles]

We've often seen Christians defend their lust for killing (either in war, or the death penalty, or when calling to rid the world of gay people, witches, atheists, or simply wanting to nuke Islamic countries), or defending Jesus's promise to come back and start massacring all the unworthy, or defending Yahweh's genocidal rampages.

The conversation is like this:

Atheist: I thought "Thou Shalt Not Kill?" How can you be for this killing?
Christian: No! You stupid moron! The translation is "Thou Shalt Not MURDER", you ignorant twat. What? Are you for murder, you evil, reprobate?!"
Atheist: Well, you have certainly hoisted me by my own petard, fine sir, and I deserve the vicious ridicule you have so un-judgmentally beset upon me!"

But, wait. Murder is a legal term. Murder is defined by the State. In fact, different States (both States in the USA, but also countries).

In some countries it is legal to kill gay people. In some countries Honor Killing is legal.

It would not be murder to kill ones child for embarrassing you in some countries.

Did God not know this when he inspired this line? Wouldn't it make more sense to say "Kill" and simply stop all killing? But that wouldn't satisfy the patriarchy's lust to kill, does it?

Seems to me, this is an obvious case of Christians trying to make the Bible sound better than it is, without noticing it makes it worse.


Thoughts?

Just to set the record straight here, of the 55 Bibles I checked, Exodus 20:13 uses the word "Kill" 15 times (27%) and "murder" 40 times (73%). And Deuteronomy 5:17 uses "kill" 14 times (25%) and "murder" 41 times (75%). So essentially "Kill" is used in one out of every four of the Bibles I checked, which I believe is a significant amount.

.

[bjs1]

We've often seen Christians defend their lust for killing (either in war, or the death penalty, or when calling to rid the world of gay people, witches, atheists, or simply wanting to nuke Islamic countries),

I had in fact never heard this, much less heard it “often.” Could you give a few examples of Christians insisting that we should kill all atheists or that we should nuke Islamic countries?

[thomasdixon]

When it comes to the KJV of the Bible the Jewish people were singled out, God said,

(Deu 7:6 KJV) For thou art a holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
(Deu 7:7 KJV) The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
(Deu 7:8 KJV) But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers,
(Deu 7:12 KJV) Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he swore unto thy fathers:
(Deu 7:13 KJV) And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kin, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.

God chose them, gave them instructions on how they should live their lives and “if” they obey His commandment, He will love them and multiply them.

(Ezek 36:22 KJV) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
(Ezek 36:24 KJV) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

The above actually took place in 1947ad.

(Ezek 36:31 KJV) Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
(Ezek 36:32 KJV) Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, Ohouse of Israel.

In verse (Ezek 36:24 KJV), God gathered them, now He is judging them.

You cast your vote, are they (The Israelis) guilty of disobeying Gods commandments or not?

[JehovahsWitness]

New American Standard Bible
"You shall not murder. - Exodus 20:13

King James Bible
Thou shalt not kill. - Exodus 20: 13

QUESTION: Did the Mosaic law prohibit killing or murder?


The Hebrew word used in the passages above (ratsach) is not nearly as specific as the English word "murder". Ratsach (killing) can refer to both lawful and unlawful killing. While the English language uses different terms with different nuances to distinguish different types of killing, for example, accidental killing (manslaughter), Hebrew does not. So "ratsach" can refer to killing on the battle field (Ezekiel 21:22 - same cognitive noun), lawful killing in other circumstances(Numbers 35:27, 30) or unlawful "murder" or "assasination" (see Jud 20:4, 1 Kings 21:19, 2 Kings 6:32) and it is the contextual markers that indicate whether the killing being referred to is lawful or not.

Under the Mosaic law there was no blanket prohibition on killing or the taking of a life under any circumstances. Hebrew law prohibited "unlawful" killing (or murder); this is self evident since certain types of killing carried the death penalty or other sanctions under the law while others did not.. Members of the military, for example were permitted to kill the enemy, as were those that lawfully had the right to avenge the the killing of a blood relative. The law also allowed for the lawful execution of convicted criminals of certain crimes with allowances for unintentionally killing (manslaughter). The same word (ratsach) is used in the original language to describe the all of the above.


CONCLUSION: The Mosaic Law prohibited murder (unlawful killing). While the same Hebrew word can be translated "kill" in Exodus 20:13 the context is clearly prohibited or unlawful "killing" which in English can be translated as MURDER




RELATED POSTS

Why does the bible include accounts of military exploits and divine executions?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 09#p990309

To learn more please go to other posts related to ...

ARMAGEDDON, DIVINE WAR and ...KILLING IN SCRIPTURE

[boatsnguitars]

[Replying to bjs1 in post #4]

I suspect you are being disingenuous. Are you not aware of Christians killing people - and justifying it with Bible verses? Really? Not even the verse that says God commanded people to kill, so they killed the Midianites, etc. (assuming you think Yahweh is also Jesus), or the verses calling for the death of witches and gay people? Or the Inquisition?
Or Calvin having Servetus killed?
Or Christians murdering Hypatia of Alexandria?
Or, the Christians in Ireland killing each other for religious reasons?
Or, Christians claiming the war in Iraq was a continuation of the Crusade?
Or, Christians who argue for the Death Penalty or War by using Bible verses?
Or, Christians claiming the Cold War was Christianity versus Atheism, and that we should kill people from the USSR?
Or, the Christians who, during the 80's, wrote and sang the song "Bomb Iran" to the music of "Barbara Ann" by the Beach Boys.
Or, the King of England persecuting non-Church of England Christians to the point that they fled for America?
Or, Christians who call for the death of abortionists?
Or, Christians who are abortionists?
Or, the Salem Witch Trials

Like I said, I expect you are being disingenuous. Just because you aren't calling for the deaths of others, doesn't mean other Christians aren't.

https://www.advocate.com/news/2022/6/10 ... -shot-head

[boatsnguitars]

New American Standard Bible
"You shall not murder. - Exodus 20:13

King James Bible
Thou shalt not kill. - Exodus 20: 13

QUESTION: Did the Mosaic law prohibit killing or murder?


The Hebrew word used in the passages above (ratsach) is not nearly as specific as the English word "murder". Ratsach (killing) can refer to both lawful and unlawful killing. While the English language uses different terms with different nuances to distinguish different types of killing, for example, accidental killing (manslaughter), Hebrew does not. So "ratsach" can refer to killing on the battle field (Ezekiel 21:22 - same cognitive noun), lawful killing in other circumstances(Numbers 35:27, 30) or unlawful "murder" or "assasination" (see Jud 20:4, 1 Kings 21:19, 2 Kings 6:32) and it is the contextual markers that indicate whether the killing being referred to is lawful or not.

Under the Mosaic law there was no blanket prohibition on killing or the taking of a life under any circumstances. Hebrew law prohibited "unlawful" killing (or murder); this is self evident since certain types of killing carried the death penalty or other sanctions under the law while others did not.. Members of the military, for example were permitted to kill the enemy, as were those that lawfully had the right to avenge the the killing of a blood relative. The law also allowed for the lawful execution of convicted criminals of certain crimes with allowances for unintentionally killing (manslaughter). The same word (ratsach) is used in the original language to describe the all of the above.


CONCLUSION: The Mosaic Law prohibited murder (unlawful killing). While the same Hebrew word can be translated "kill" in Exodus 20:13 the context is clearly prohibited or unlawful "killing" which in English can be translated as MURDER




RELATED POSTS

Why does the bible include accounts of military exploits and divine executions?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 09#p990309

To learn more please go to other posts related to ...

ARMAGEDDON, DIVINE WAR and ...KILLING IN SCRIPTURE

Right, and my point is "What is Murder?" Unlawful killing?

Murder is a legal term and varies from State to State, Time to Time. Laws change.

So, what is this Commandment telling us not to do? For example, in some countries it's legal to kill one's daughter for having premarital sex. Or, it's legal to kill gay people.

Is that what Christians want? How are they to make sense of a vague commandment?

[boatsnguitars]

We've often seen Christians defend their lust for killing (either in war, or the death penalty, or when calling to rid the world of gay people, witches, atheists, or simply wanting to nuke Islamic countries), or defending Jesus's promise to come back and start massacring all the unworthy, or defending Yahweh's genocidal rampages.

The conversation is like this:

Atheist: I thought "Thou Shalt Not Kill?" How can you be for this killing?
Christian: No! You stupid moron! The translation is "Thou Shalt Not MURDER", you ignorant twat. What? Are you for murder, you evil, reprobate?!"
Atheist: Well, you have certainly hoisted me by my own petard, fine sir, and I deserve the vicious ridicule you have so un-judgmentally beset upon me!"

But, wait. Murder is a legal term. Murder is defined by the State. In fact, different States (both States in the USA, but also countries).

In some countries it is legal to kill gay people. In some countries Honor Killing is legal.

It would not be murder to kill ones child for embarrassing you in some countries.

Did God not know this when he inspired this line? Wouldn't it make more sense to say "Kill" and simply stop all killing? But that wouldn't satisfy the patriarchy's lust to kill, does it?

Seems to me, this is an obvious case of Christians trying to make the Bible sound better than it is, without noticing it makes it worse.


Thoughts?

Just to set the record straight here, of the 55 Bibles I checked, Exodus 20:13 uses the word "Kill" 15 times (27%) and "murder" 40 times (73%). And Deuteronomy 5:17 uses "kill" 14 times (25%) and "murder" 41 times (75%). So essentially "Kill" is used in one out of every four of the Bibles I checked, which I believe is a significant amount.

.

I imagine it depends on the context, but I think my point stands:

"Murder" is defined as "unlawful killing", which means it's based on the law of the local authorities. If they make "The Purge" legal, then what is the point of the Commandment?

For example, Abortion was legal in the US, therefore, there was no reason for Christians to complain that it was against God's Commandment.

[JehovahsWitness]

Right, and my point is "What is Murder?" Unlawful killing?

Yes, that is correct.

Murder is a legal term and varies from State to State, Time to Time. Laws change.

True. But in the biblical context it would be killing that violates divine law.

So, what is this Commandment telling us not to do?

Not to violate divine law.

For example, in some countries it's legal to kill one's daughter for having premarital sex. Or, it's legal to kill gay people.

Neither are currently approved in the biblical context.

Is that what Christians want?

The law is not subject to wants and desires. The law is the law (is the law)

How are they to make sense of a vague commandment?

Which commandement are you refering to? The biblical commandements were clear enough for the people of Israel to know how to apply them.




JW