Questions about Jesus and JW’s

MissKate13 · Post by **MissKate13** » Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:39 am

1. Jehovah’s Witnesses say Jesus was “a god.” This is how the NWT reads (John 1:1).

Do JW’s believe Jesus was a true or false god?

2. JW’s say Jesus is a created being.

When was Jesus (capital or lower case g) created?

I look forward to your responses to one or both questions.

MissKate13

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Feb 18, 2023 1:53 pm

MissKate13 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 12:14 pm
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. (Colossians 1:15-18)

What are we to understand by Jesus being the "the firstborn over [or of] all creation"?

ANSWER: That Jesus (in his pre-human existence as THE WORD) was the first person YHWH created. Jesus was the Greatest, the most preminent of all of YHWH's creative work. For amore detailed analysis see post -> viewtopic.php?p=1111525#p1111525

How are we to reconcile Jesus' being present during creation with Isaiah 44v24 which says YHWH was "alone" at that time?

He was alone in his position as CREATOR not literally with nobody else in existence

See post above for details --> viewtopic.php?p=1112478#p1112478

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JESUS CHRIST , PRE-HUMAN EXISTENCE and ... THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Feb 18, 2023 1:54 pm

MissKate13 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 11:03 am... the New Testament says that salvation belongs to and originates from the Lord Jesus ....

Emphasis MINE

"I do nothing of my own initiative." - JESUS CHRIST (John 8:28 compare John 4:22 b )

No scripture indicates Jesus as being the "initiator" or the ultimate source of our salvation. JESUS is always presented in scripture as the means (or the channel, or THE WAY) by which YHWH saves mankind.

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JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:14 pm

MissKate13 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 11:03 am
Proof #5

In the Old Testament, YHWH says, There is no Savior BESIDES ME (Isaiah 43:10; Hosea 13:4)

HOW CAN JESUS BE OUR SAVIOR IF IN HOSEA 13:4 RECORDS YHWH AS SAYING "THERE IS NO SAVIOR BESIDE ME"?

There is only one initiator of Salvation. Jehovah (YHWH) is our only saviour as no salvation would be possible without Him. Jesus is our saviour in a similar way as the biblical judges such as Samson and Gideon were saviours , namely he was sent by God to be used as an instrument in God's hands (John 8:28 ).

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JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Feb 18, 2023 4:47 pm

WHO SAVED THE WORLD JEHOVAH OR JESUS?

ANSWER: BOTH since YHWH sent Jesus to save the world. Only JEHOVAH (YHWH) however can be seen as the source and initiator of salvation .

Note the following ...

Jesus proclaimed that he came to seek and save the lost (Luke 19:10) but freely admitted he had been sent to do so --> see Matthew 15:24

The New Testament declares Jesus is Savior (Philippians 3:20) , a savior for {quote} "the upward call of God by means of Christ Jesus." (verse 14) )

Jesus is called "the savior of the world" (John 4:42), a savior about whom his disciples bore " witness that the Father has sent his Son as savior of the world" (1 John 4:14)

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onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Sat Feb 18, 2023 5:18 pm

MissKate13 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 11:01 am Scripture can NEVER contradict Scripture. Using a New Testament Scripture to prove an Old Testament Scripture false is nothing short of calling the Holy Spirit a liar.

WHO IS THE SPEAKER in Isaiah 44:6? It is YHWH AND HIS REDEEMER. BOTH are the first and last. BOTH are redeemer. BOTH say “Besides Me is there is no God.” BOTH are YHWH!

“Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. (NKJV)

You are the one who sets forth contradictions within the Scriptures. You even misquote verses. Paul referred to TWO individuals when he mentioned "our God and Savior Jesus Christ." Many versions say, "our God and our Savior Jesus Christ." He is speaking of the Father AND Jesus Christ. If you would look closely at the letters Paul wrote, he always mentioned God, the Father, AND Jesus His Son.

Jehovah can say there is no other because there is not another equal to Him. Jesus is His first creation, and cannot be equal to Him. You quoted that verse yourself in Colossians. Jesus REFLECTED his Father's qualities and glory. He didn't have those things on his own. He said so often that what he said and did did not belong to him, but he said and did what the Father told him to. (John 5:19)

You are misquoting the verse that says "if you do not believe that I am he, you will die..." (John 8:24) You leave off the word "he." That gives a different meaning to that verse. The way it is written in the Scriptures is with "he." "If you do not believe that I am HE,"....So you see that he was not claiming to be "I Am." You'll have to rewrite that verse as you have it on your site. It does NOT say "if you do not believe that I Am." You are distorting what the Scriptures actually say.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Feb 18, 2023 6:06 pm

WHO GETS CREDIT FOR SALVATION?

Since salvation comes to us from Jehovah through Jesus BOTH are to be praised by mankind.

REVELATION New King James Version

and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

CONCLUSION All humanity owes their salvation to BOTH the Father, who provided the means for our salvation AND to the Son, whose faith and obedience was the channel through which that salvation was made possible. But since Jesus always gave full glory to the Father, we must always recognise YHWH for being the initiator of that salvation.

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viewtopic.php?p=1112589#p1112589

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Feb 18, 2023 6:29 pm

MissKate13 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 12:17 pm ...Christ came to redeem his people from their sins... (Matthew 1:21, Titus 2:13,14).

DID JESUS HAVE TO BE YHWH TO SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS?

MATTHEW 1:21: She will give birth to a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins

ACTS 5:31

God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins

.

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JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Feb 18, 2023 7:02 pm

MissKate13 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 11:03 am YHWH says, “to me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath.” (Isaiah 45:23) Yet, in the New Testament we read, "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” (Philippians 2:10-11)

ARE CHRISTIANS ALLOWED TO BEND THE KNEE TO MORE THAN ONE PERSON?

In scripture "bowing or bending one's knee" is a sign of respect and submission not only in adoration of worship. There is absolutely no reason people cannot bend the knee to BOTH Jesus and YHWH without that making them the same person.

For the difference between hommage/respect and worship see links below - > post #179

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Feb 18, 2023 7:07 pm

PROSKYNEO: DEFINTION (word studies)

(tigger)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 51#p867151

"Hommage" or "Worship" (JW)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 05#p842405

NWT - Heb 1:6 (JW)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 30#p866930

Phil 2:10: "Every knee shall bow" (tigger)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 38#p864138

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Did JW worship Jesus prior to 1954? (tigger)
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Jesus subservient to Jehovah (Onewithhim)
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1 COR 11:3 The resurrected Christ presently INFERIOR to the Father? (tigger)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 37#p864337

Should both JEHOVAH and the Son Jesus be worshipped? Rev 5:13
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 20#p864020

Luke 24:52 "They worshipped him and returned to Jerusalem" (tigger)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 75#p864375

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

PRAYER, GOD and ... THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED

MissKate13 · Post by **MissKate13** » Mon Feb 20, 2023 7:59 am

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YHWH = Jesus

Proof # 6

Jesus is EVERLASTING

The Bible makes it abundantly clear that there never was a time when the LOGOS did not exist.

Micah 5:2 The prophet is speaking of Jesus whose goings forth are from old, from EVERLASTING.

Micah would disagree with Watchtower Witnesses who say Jesus, the Messiah had a beginning.

“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be Ruler in Israel,
Whose goings forth are from of old,
From everlasting.

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