Questions about Jesus and JW’s

[MissKate13]

1. Jehovah’s Witnesses say Jesus was “a god.” This is how the NWT reads (John 1:1).

Do JW’s believe Jesus was a true or false god?

2. JW’s say Jesus is a created being.

When was Jesus (capital or lower case g) created?

I look forward to your responses to one or both questions.

MissKate13

[JehovahsWitness]

YHWH = Jesus

Proof # 3

13 “looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. (Titus 2:13-14)

DOES PAUL CALL JESUS OUR GOD AND SAVIOUR?

TITUS 2:13 NKJV

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

TITUS 2:13 - DOUAY-RHEIMS

Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

While some bible translations render the verses in a way that suggests they refer to one individual, one should be careful not to abuse the so-alled "sharps rule". Indeed in discussing Rev. 2:8; 2:2 .Kermit Titrud offers the following "modification" to the Granville Sharp rule stating: "If the first substantive has an article and the second does not, the second refers to the same person or thing as the first unless the context suggests otherwise." - D.A. Black's (Ed.) Linguistics and NT Interpretation pp. 249-250

Since the letter to Titus offers little by way of context to build a definitive case either way, we are obliged to look to the wider context of Pauls writings where we find he clearly identify Jesus and Almighty God (The God ho theos) as seperate individuals, with the former subordinate to the later.

Further while Sharp did not clearly exclude proper names from the rule’s application, a close examination of his monograph reveals that he felt the rule could be applied absolutely only to personal, singular, non-proper nouns. (For more on thisnpoint see the commentary "Sharp Redivivus? - A Reexamination of the Granville Sharp Rule" https://bible.org/article/sharp-rediviv ... sharp-rule )

AND CHRIST OR AND [OF] CHRIST?

Given the above, there is no grammatical basis to object to translating the Greek in a similar way to the English "Our King and country". While it shoulld be understood, (even without saying) that the KING is not the The Vountry, for clarity we can change the word order or add a word such as the possesive pronoun (our). For example the KING JAMES VERSION reads :

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" - King James Version

Arguably the word order, even without adding a comma after Saviour, implies a description of two rather than one individual. Other translations highlight that two different individuals are being referred to by adding the preposition "of" (as one might in "A subject of King and [of] country") note the following translations ...

VARIOUS OTHER TRANSLATIONS

lokynge for þe blessed hope & appearinge of the glory of the greate God, & of oure sauioure Iesu Christ, - The Great Bible

Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glorie of that mightie God, and of our Sauiour Iesus Christ, - Geneva

lokinge for that blessed hope and glorious apperenge of ye myghty god and of oure savioure Iesu Christ - Tyndale

awaiting the blessed hope of the appearance of the Glory of the great God and of our Saviour Christ Jesus, - Moffatt

looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, - Sawyer

as we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus - New American Bible - 1970

as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ - New American Bible - 1991

while we wait for the blessed thing we hope for, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ - A New Translation in Plain English - Charles K. Williams

And while we live this life we hope and wait for the glorious denouement of the Great God and of Jesus Christ our saviour . - Phillips

Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glory of that mighty God, and of our Savior Jesus Christ. - GNV

"looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of the mighty God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ," - NMB

As we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ - New American Bible - 2010

CONCLUSION It is grammatically dubious to insist that Paul (the writer of Titus) was suggesting Jesus was God in the above passage. Two indivisuals are spoken of only one of which is being revered to as God. The most one can say is the expression is somewhat ambiguous and we need to look to the wider context of Paul's writing to for a definitive conclusion

Further Reading
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... -rule.html

Sharps Rule
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... ts-on.html
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -rule.html
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -some.html



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[MissKate13]

Scripture can NEVER contradict Scripture. Using a New Testament Scripture to prove an Old Testament Scripture false is nothing short of calling the Holy Spirit a liar.

WHO IS THE SPEAKER in Isaiah 44:6? It is YHWH AND HIS REDEEMER. BOTH are the first and last. BOTH are redeemer. BOTH say “Besides Me is there is no God.” BOTH are YHWH!

“Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. (NKJV)

[JehovahsWitness]

DOES THE FACT THAT BOTH JESUS AND HIS FATHER YHWH SHARE CERTAIN TITLES MEAN THEY ARE THE SAME INDIVIDUAL ?


Absolutely not! Just as two completely different men can BOTH be husbands without making them the same individual, Just because JESUS and JEHOVAH (YHWH) BOTH are called by certain TITLES, it doesnt mean they are the same. Jesus himself explained that sharing a title does not equate to being equal to Almighty God. Note what he said to those who accused him of blasphemy

JOHN 10:34-35 - New King James Version

Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

While there are logically some titles that can only be applied to YHWH (there can only be one Almighty God) many other titles and expressions (such as "redeemer" "Lord" "Savior" "Father" even "God" ) can be applied to both Jesus and His Father without any suggestion they are equal or the same person.


QUESTION : How can the expression "The First and the Last" apply to anyone but the Almighty?

ANSWER: By adding a qualifier.

To illustrate: Is there a difference between "The best cook in England" and "The best cook" ? The first expression is qualified, meaning, there is at least an implied limitation. So he or she is the best in a particular catagory (cooks that live in England). The second is unqualified. So "The Best Cook" might mean (according to context) "the best cook" in our family or the best cook in the whole world or it might even mean : the best cook of all time!

Now if we look at Revelation 1:17& 2:18 Jesus is indeed described as "The First and the Last" but it doesnt stop there. The expression it is qualified (limited) to being the first and last of the dead. But when speaking of Jehovah (YHWH)the context nearly always indicates "The First and the Last" IN THE ABSOLUTE (no qualifiers, and certainly no mention of being dead at any time). YHWH declared himself "the First and the last" Almighty God of the universe; the God without limit and without equal ! (Compare Isaiah 44:6; 48:12, Rev 1:8; 21:6 ).

CONCLUSION Just because YHWH is called "The first and the Last" it does not mean every time we see the expression it refers to Him. The expression is applied in a limited sense, to Jesus in Rev 1:17 and Rev 2:18 without any need to conclude they are equal or that Jesus is Almighty God.

Further reading : SFBT
http://defendingjehovahswitnesses.blogs ... ation.html



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[MissKate13]

YHWH = Jesus

Proof #5
1. YHWH says no Savior besides Me.
2. Jesus says He is Savior.
3. Therefore Jesus is YHWH

In the Old Testament, YHWH says, There is no Savior BESIDES ME (Isaiah 43:10; Hosea 13:4)

Yet Jesus proclaimed that he came to seek and save the lost (Luke 19:10). The New Testament declares Jesus is Savior (Philippians 3:20; John 4:42; Titus 2:13)

There are others who are called saviors in Scripture, but they were not Divine, nor were they gods. God used human beings to set Israel free from the oppression of their enemies (Obadiah 1:21; Judges 3:8-9) They were not sent to redeem Israel from their sins or to grant them eternal life, something which God ALONE can do.

1. Salvation originates from YHWH
2. Salvation originated from Jesus
3. Therefore, Jesus is YHWH

The Old Testament Scriptures emphatically teach that salvation belongs to and originates from YHWH (Psalm 3:8; Jonah 2:9).

Yet, the New Testament says that salvation belongs to and originates from the Lord Jesus as well (Revelation 7:10). Jesus is the very Source of salvation whom the Father sent to do what God alone can do, and that is to purify people from their sins by his blood.

1. YHWH redeemed His people from their sins in order to make them his very own possession.
2. Jesus did the same thing. He came to redeem his people from their sins in order to make them his very own inheritance.
3. Therefore Jesus is YHWH.

The Old Testament Scriptures say that YHWH redeemed his people from their sins in order to make them his very own possession (Exodus 19:5; Deuteronomy 7:6, 14:2, 26:18)

Yet the New Testament teaches that the Lord Jesus did the same thing that YHWH did. Christ came to redeem his people from their sins so as to make them his very own inheritance (Matthew 1:21, Titus 2:13,14).

1. YHWH says every knee shall bow to him
2. The NT says every knee will bow at the name of Jesus.
3. Therefore Jesus is YHWH.

YHWH says, “to me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath.” (Isaiah 45:23)

Yet, in the New Testament we read,
"that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” (Philippians 2:10-11)










[JehovahsWitness]

YHWH = Jesus

Proof #5




??? Sorry Misskate, you seem to have gone from #3 directly to #5 .... where is #4? Can you correct this (just click on the edit (pencil) tab at the bottom of your post. It will be a little confusing if we skip numbers like that don't you think?

[MissKate13]

From Post #162

Proof # 4

YHWH = Jesus

Scripture NEVER contradicts Scripture. YHWH says He made all things. He ALONE stretched out the heavens. YHWH says by MYSELF spread out the earth.

The Scriptures teach that Yahweh used his Spirit, his Power, his Word and his very Wisdom to create all things.

24 “Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who by Myself spread out the earth,” (Isaiah 44:24)

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. (Colossians 1:15-18)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

[MissKate13]

YHWH = Jesus

Proof #5

1. YHWH says no Savior besides Me.
2. Jesus says He is Savior.
3. Therefore Jesus is YHWH

In the Old Testament, YHWH says, There is no Savior BESIDES ME (Isaiah 43:10; Hosea 13:4)

Yet Jesus proclaimed that he came to seek and save the lost (Luke 19:10). The New Testament declares Jesus is Savior (Philippians 3:20; John 4:42; Titus 2:13)

There are others who are called saviors in Scripture, but they were not Divine, nor were they gods. God used human beings to set Israel free from the oppression of their enemies (Obadiah 1:21; Judges 3:8-9) They were not sent to redeem Israel from their sins or to grant them eternal life, something which God ALONE can do.

1. Salvation originates from YHWH
2. Salvation originated from Jesus
3. Therefore, Jesus is YHWH

The Old Testament Scriptures emphatically teach that salvation belongs to and originates from YHWH (Psalm 3:8; Jonah 2:9).

Yet, the New Testament says that salvation belongs to and originates from the Lord Jesus as well (Revelation 7:10). Jesus is the very Source of salvation whom the Father sent to do what God alone can do, and that is to purify people from their sins by his blood.

1. YHWH redeemed His people from their sins in order to make them his very own possession.
2. Jesus did the same thing. He came to redeem his people from their sins in order to make them his very own inheritance.
3. Therefore Jesus is YHWH.

The Old Testament Scriptures say that YHWH redeemed his people from their sins in order to make them his very own possession (Exodus 19:5; Deuteronomy 7:6, 14:2, 26:18)

Yet the New Testament teaches that the Lord Jesus did the same thing that YHWH did. Christ came to redeem his people from their sins so as to make them his very own inheritance (Matthew 1:21, Titus 2:13,14).

1. YHWH says every knee shall bow to him
2. The NT says every knee will bow at the name of Jesus.
3. Therefore Jesus is YHWH.

YHWH says, “to me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath.” (Isaiah 45:23)

Yet, in the New Testament we read,
"that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” (Philippians 2:10-11)

[MissKate13]

Moderator - Can you tell me why the “color” feature won’t work on my words? What am I doing wrong? I’m using it as I would the bold, italics and underline features.
Thank You,
MissKate13

[JehovahsWitness]

From Post #162

Proof # 4

...YHWH says He made all things. He ALONE stretched out the heavens. YHWH says by MYSELF spread out the earth. The Scriptures teach that Yahweh used his Spirit, his Power, and his very Wisdom to create all things.

This is True. None of the above supports the idea that Jesus is the same individual as Almighty God YHWH (Jehovah), much less any idea for a "Trinity".

YHWH's ...

SPIRIT = God's Active force
POWER = God' FORCE
WORD = Divine utterences/Speech
WISDOM = Practical intelligence

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JESUS CHRIST , PRE-HUMAN EXISTENCE and ... THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED

[JehovahsWitness]

HOW CAN THE FACT THAT THE WORD WAS WITH YHWH (JEHOVAH) DURING CREATION , BE RECONCILED WITH ISIAIAH 44:24 ?

ISAIAH 44: 24

"Thus said Jehovah, thy redeemer, And thy framer from the womb: 'I am Jehovah, doing all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, Spreading out the earth -- who is with Me?" - Young's Literal Translation

Job 9:8
Who alone stretches out the heavens and tramples down the waves of the sea. (NASB)

Job 38: 4-7 proves that God was not LITERALLY alone when he began creating the earth. Job reads [CAPs mine]

Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstones
7 while the morning stars sang together
-->and all the angels shouted for joy? <--

Thus, prior to the creation of the physical universe God therefore created his spiritual family, including his son Jesus (The Word) and the angels. . The bible never contradicts itself, so since we know God was not literally alone at the moment of creation, in what sense was he "alone" and "by Himself? God cannot be implying no one else was present at creation but rather that no one was EQUAL to him as being the initiator of that those creative acts. But how can you be alone when other people are present?

To illustrate: A Union Leader suggests factory workers go on strike he might present his case and then ask "Who is WITH me?" He is not asking who is present but who is on my side ready to support this decision? Who will help me? Similarly, when someone says "I went through the whole thing alone/by myself" he is not necessarily saying there were no other humans present on earth (or even aware of the situation ) but that he or she when through the experience in their own force, without drawing on or needing others for support.

IN WHAT SENSE IS IT TRUE JEHOVAH WAS "ALONE" ?

While the angels WITNESSED creation (and Jesus was used as a worker), the Almighty needed no one to ensure that his purpose be accomplished, he was "alone" in his position of initiator, designer and CREATOR of the universe. Jesus working for God does not mean God could not have achieved his aims without his Son, since He (God) has unlimited power and resource.






THE CORRECT UNDERSTANDING OF ISAIAH 44v24 : The context of Isaiah indicates the Almighty is emphasising, not his solitude, but his power, unequaled in the universe and certainly unequalled before puny humans (see Isaiah 44: 24-28 ) Isaiah is not saying God was literally "alone", it is saying He created alone, that he drew on or called on, no one else to create and God ALONE can take credit for the existence of the universe and all that is in it (See Ps 83:18 ).


FURTHER READING
http://searchforbibletruths.blogspot.fr ... -said.html


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