Exodus - how can this be?

[Rose2020]

I am reading Exodus, about Moses.

I am having great trouble with reconciling the God of love, life and goodness with the events in chapter 32.

How can this be - our God, Father, Creator, ordering violence and murder?

Please someone explain to me. Did God really speak to Moses with the commands in verses 27- 29?

[Miles]

As has been pointed out several times here

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is given by God. And all Scripture is useful for teaching and for showing people what is wrong in their lives. "

and

Proverbs 30:5-6
5 You can trust this: Every word that God speaks is true. God is a safe place for those who go to him. 6 So don’t try to change what God says. If you do, he will punish you and prove that you are a liar.

So when Exodus 32 says:

27 Then Moses said to them, “I will tell you what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Every man must get his sword and go from one end of the camp to the other. You men must kill those who are against the Lord, even if they are your brothers, friends, or neighbors.’”

28 The people from the tribe of Levi obeyed Moses. That day about 3000 of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, “Take your role today as special servants of the Lord because you were willing to fight against even your own sons and brothers. You will receive a blessing for this.”

That's exactly what god wanted, and why "the God of love, life and goodness" is not a true god of love, life and goodness, but one who can be cruel and vindictive, and has no compunctions about ordering innocent women, children and little babies killed

1 Samuel 15:3
3 Now go fight against the Amalekites. You must completely destroy the Amalekites and everything that belongs to them. Don’t let anything live; you must kill all the men and women and all of their children and little babies. You must kill all of their cattle and sheep and all of their camels and donkeys.’

Personally, I don't care how good the god of Abraham can be, he has a dastardly flip side that harbors hate, unforgiving vindictiveness, and inhumane barbarism. Not the kind of god I would ever worship.

.

[RIP]

[Replying to Rose2020 in post #1]

Yes, of course, God really did give the commands in (Ex. 32:27-29).

When you say you need to reconcile this with our God of love, you are saying God is love and nothing else. And the Bible never presents God as that.

That these verses have made such an impression on you is good. You have learned something of God.

As you read the Bible from (Genesis) to (Revelation), which every Christian should always be doing, you let it form your understanding of God.

The greatest act of love in the universe was displayed on the Cross with the bloody figure of the Son beaten and nailed to the Cross and then having the sins of the whole world placed upon Him. And then He died. Do you feel the need to reconcile this with the God of love?

Rip

[1213]

I am reading Exodus, about Moses.

I am having great trouble with reconciling the God of love, life and goodness with the events in chapter 32.

How can this be - our God, Father, Creator, ordering violence and murder?

Please someone explain to me. Did God really speak to Moses with the commands in verses 27- 29?

I believe God is good. So, if He wants someone to be killed, I believe there is a good reason for that. And, because He has given life, I think He has right to decide how long-life lasts. Has anyone done anything to deserve to live eternally? If not, then I don't see a problem, if God doesn't allow all to live forever.

But why do you think that case is somehow worse than all other deaths that seem to occur every day?

[Rose2020]

[Replying to Miles in post #2]

I do take your points as valid. What is one to think?
I am a Christian believer, I put my faith in Christ, Father God and Holy Spirit. Yet, I am appalled when reading these Old Testament sections. I am genuinely mystified as it is hard to reconcile a loving Creator with such barbaric murder and cruelty.

[Rose2020]

[Replying to 1213 in post #4]

Yes, your view brings it into perspective. Yet, it is hard to read of innocent people slaughtered.

[Overcomer]

Rose2020 wrote:

it is hard to read of innocent people slaughtered

But they weren't innocent. That's the point. They had committed idolatry and made and worshiped a golden calf.

In verse 21, Moses asks Aaron what these people had done to him that he would lead them into such great sin. Then Aaron tries to make it look like the people were to blame, not him, saying that they were "prone to evil" in verses 21 to 14.

In verse 25, we read that "Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies."

So these were not innocent people. They had transgressed in a major way.

[JehovahsWitness]

I am reading Exodus, about Moses. I am having great trouble with reconciling the God of love, life and goodness with the events in chapter 32. How can this be - our God, Father, Creator, ordering violence and murder?

God did not order "violence or murder" any more than a judge incarcerating a criminal is ordering kidnapping and unlawful restraint. There is no love without justice.

Please someone explain to me. Did God really speak to Moses with the commands in verses 27- 29?

EXODUS 32: 27- 29

He now said to them: “This is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said, ‘Each of you must fasten on his sword and pass through all the camp from gate to gate, killing his brother, his neighbor, and his close companion.’”+ 28 The Levites did what Moses said. So about 3,000 men were killed on that day. 29 Then Moses said: “Set yourselves apart for Jehovah today, for each of you has gone against his own son and his own brother;+ today he will give you a blessing.”

Compare ...

EXODUS 20: 4-6

You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth. 5 You must not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them, for I, Jehovah your God, am a God who requires exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing loyal love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments

EXODUS 20: 3

Then Moses came and related to the people all the words of Jehovah and all the judicial decisions,+ and all the people answered with one voice: “All the words that Jehovah has spoken, we are willing to do.”

RELATED POSTS

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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 54#p959154

To learn more please go to other posts related to ...

ARMAGEDDON, DIVINE WAR and ...KILLING IN SCRIPTURE

[1213]

...Yet, it is hard to read of innocent people slaughtered.

How do yuo know who are really innocent and who are not?

But, if we believe what the Bible tells, if person is righteous, he will have eternal life with God. So, if an innocent person dies, it is not the end for him.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

[Difflugia]

Please someone explain to me. Did God really speak to Moses with the commands in verses 27- 29?

This is the sixty-four-dollar question. Is Exodus 32 inerrant history? Is it a fallible, human interpretation of history? Is it allegory? My suggestion to you is that you ask questions of the Bible through each of these lenses and see what different answers you find. Even if you don't believe that particular points of view reflect the truth of the Bible, give them the benefit of the doubt as a devotional exercise. Exodus 32 is telling you a story. If the Bible is inerrant and God-breathed, then God engineered the very events of history to tell you that story. If not, then one or more human authors of the past are telling you a story. Perhaps it's a combination of both and Exodus 32 is divinely inspired, but also human allegory.

If the author really is God, what does that mean about how God views idolatry? Even if those following Aaron were sincere in their desire to worship Yahweh, they were doing it in a way that He had commanded them not to, literally in the Second Commandment. Why might that be so important to God that the punishment would be death, even of people that might be innocent of any other transgressions? Genesis 32 is also one of the origin stories of the Levites. Why might God have engineered such a violent and contentious beginning for His chosen priesthood?

Now switch gears and imagine that Exodus 32 was written to you by a person. The story is perhaps of a real civil war between two factions and the author is seeking religious meaning in the violence and slaughter. What did the author think of impatience? What did he or she think of priests that compromise their religious values and bend to popular demands? What does the story say about authority and responsibility? When Moses asked Aaron what happened in verse 21, did Aaron accept responsibiilty for his actions or did he try to shift the blame?

Now imagine that none of this actually happened, but is a fictional story to illustrate the relationship between two groups of exiles that must now find common ground and an explanation behind their past. Aaron is a southern, Judahite hero and Moses is a northern, Israelite one. The bull was also a symbol of the Canaanite god El. If there was a group of exilic Judahites that believed that El and Yahweh were one and the same, what might the author have thought about that?

Contemplating these things from alternate points of view doesn't mean you have to believe them. It will, however, offer alternate avenues for understanding not only the text, but other believers (and occasionally nonbelievers). I also again recommend reading commentary along with the text itself. Archaeologists and textual scholars have uncovered much information that is difficult or impossible to glean from the Bible text alone. For starters, take an hour or so and read the twelve-page section on chapter 32 in the Homiletical Commentary on the Book of Exodus at Internet Archive. It's worth the investment of your time and if you'd like help navigating the site or setting up for reading offline (do you have a Kindle or something similar?), let me know and I'd be happy to help or offer suggestions.

If you'd like a more secular take on the text's relationship with history, I recommend Richard Elliot Friedman's Who Wrote the Bible. It's inexpensive as an ebook and can likely be found as a paper book in a public library.