CONTRADICTIONS TO FACE IF YOU BELIEVE CHRIST PAID FOR SINS ON THE NEW TESTAMENT CROSS

[Eddie Ramos]

At the heart of the gospel is the death of Jesus Christ which was necessary to atone for sins as demanded by the law of God. And for centuries, it has been believed and still is by most, that Christ's death on the New Testament cross is when that payment was made. Any teaching that even suggests that this was not so, is immediately considered ludicrous and even blasphemous. But God told us that in the last days that he would reveal understanding from His Word that was kept sealed up all this time. And since the scriptures haven't changed, we know that God accomplished the limiting of our understanding the same way he kept it from his disciples when he spoke, what we now consider to be plain words.

Luke 9:44–45 (KJV 1900)
Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. 45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

Daniel 12:8–10 (KJV 1900)
And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed ***till*** the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

The "wise" in the scriptures are identified as the true children of God, whereas the wicked are not.

In this debate, I will hold to the position that Christ indeed died to pay for sins, but he did so before the world was created as per the scriptures. And that his birth, death and resurrection was a sign (a manifestation for us to see) pointing to his completed work from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8 (KJV 1900)
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 4:3 (KJV 1900)
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

2 Timothy 1:9 (KJV 1900)
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in (through) Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hebrews 9:25–26 (KJV 1900)
Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared (manifested) to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

I will also present some of the contradictions for examination for anyone who holds to the doctrine that Christ paid for sins on the New Testament cross. NOTE: I'm not saying that the scriptures contain ANY contradictions, because they don't. I'm saying that those who hold to atonement taking place on the N.T. cross face contradictions from the Bible that they must resolve.

If you believe that Christ paid for sins at the N.T. cross, then:

1. How could Christ be called the son of God, before the cross, if that name was given to Christ by him having raised rom the dead?

Romans 1:4 (KJV 1900)
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by (through) the resurrection from the dead:

2. How could Christ forgive sins before dying to pay for them, which would violate his own law?

Hebrews 9:22 (KJV 1900)
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission (no firgiveness).

Luke 7:48 (KJV 1900)
And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

FYI: Animal sacrifices or any high priestly Old Testament offering, never did anything for sins.

Hebrews 10:4 (KJV 1900)
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Hebrews 10:11 (KJV 1900)
And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

3. How could an Old Testament character be saved by grace, if grace "did not come until Christ died on the N.T. cross"? Furthermore, how could Noah be righteous (just) and without blemish (perfect) if Christ had not yet paid for his sins until thousands of years later?

Genesis 6:8–9 (KJV 1900)
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

These questions will be enough to start for now. Thanks

[EJackson85]

Many mistakenly believe that Jesus' death was the sacrifice to "save" mankind. It is not the case. The agonizing atonement that had begun (and mostly finished) before Judas kissed him was the sacrifice. This was the payment for our sins, past, present, and future, for which we will be eternally grateful to him. His death provided relief from that pain.

His death also enabled his resurrection, allowing us all to be resurrected and thus "saved" from physical death, but this was not the sacrifice.

That should clear up any confusion.

[1213]

...
2. How could Christ forgive sins before dying to pay for them, which would violate his own law?

Hebrews 9:22 (KJV 1900)
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission (no firgiveness).
...
3. How could an Old Testament character be saved by grace, if grace "did not come until Christ died on the N.T. cross"?
...

Please tell, where in the OT blood is demanded for forgiveness of sins?

[Eddie Ramos]

Many mistakenly believe that Jesus' death was the sacrifice to "save" mankind. It is not the case. The agonizing atonement that had begun (and mostly finished) before Judas kissed him was the sacrifice. This was the payment for our sins, past, present, and future, for which we will be eternally grateful to him. His death provided relief from that pain.

His death also enabled his resurrection, allowing us all to be resurrected and thus "saved" from physical death, but this was not the sacrifice.

That should clear up any confusion.

It didn't really clear up any confusion as you didn't provide any scriptures to go with it.

[Eddie Ramos]

...
2. How could Christ forgive sins before dying to pay for them, which would violate his own law?

Hebrews 9:22 (KJV 1900)
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission (no firgiveness).
...
3. How could an Old Testament character be saved by grace, if grace "did not come until Christ died on the N.T. cross"?
...

Please tell, where in the OT blood is demanded for forgiveness of sins?

It's first demonstrated by the fact that Christ died (shed his blood) before the world was created to make atonement:

Revelation 13:8 (KJV) 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This "lamb" was Christ.

John 1:29 (KJV) 29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Isaiah 53:10 (KJV)
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Then from the creation of the world, the same pattern followed suit when sin came into the world. Like the way God replaced Adam and Eve's covering (fig leaves) which was insufficient, by providing them coats of skins which pointed to the requirement of bloodshed in order to have the proper covering.

Genesis 3:21 (KJV) 21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

This picture, of blood being demanded was given in many different ways because this law was always the same:

Exodus 29:31-33 (KJV) 31 And thou shalt take the ram of the consecration, and seethe his flesh in the holy place. 32 And Aaron and his sons shall eat the flesh of the ram, and the bread that is in the basket, by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 33 And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them: but a stranger shall not eat thereof, because they are holy.

And this is repeated many times thereafter, as in the blood required for the angel of death to passoover everyone who had the blood on their door posts. Then God reveals why bloodshed was necessary, it was to make atonement.

Leviticus 17:11 (KJV) 11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

In this passage, God is also equating the blood with one's life. That's why the animal had to be sacrificed (put to death) in order to retrieve the blood.

And this picture was repeated time after time, that blood (death) was required for atonement, because that's what God'slaw demanded:

Exodus 30:10 (KJV) 10 And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.

[myth-one.com]

In this debate, I will hold to the position that Christ indeed died to pay for sins, . . .

Two possible "deaths" are described in the Bible in regards to mankind.

Our first "death" is that of our physical bodies as they exist now. Every human being ever born will die this first "death":

And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Our second possible physical death comes after completion of the judgment -- as defined in the book of Revelation:

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Believers have their names written in the Book of Life and do not suffer this second death.

So the second death is the wages of sin, not our appointed first death.

In fact, after humans die their first "death" they are said to be asleep, slumbering, or resting in the Bible. There is no need to be saved from resting!

"Whosoever was not found written in the book of life" in Revelation 20:14-15 describes those who do not believe in Jesus.

Those with their names in the Book of Life overcome the second death by gaining everlasting spiritual life:

He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

It is only the nonbelievers which suffer their second death:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

This is precisely what John 3:16 states:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jesus' death on the cross was His first and appointed death due to His being born as a man:

And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

The wages for our sins is clearly defined as the second death!

You claim that "Christ indeed died to pay for sins."

To pay the wages of our sins, Jesus would have to have suffered the second death!

So, when was He cast into the lake of fire as you claim?

[1213]

...
2. How could Christ forgive sins before dying to pay for them, which would violate his own law?

Hebrews 9:22 (KJV 1900)
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission (no firgiveness).
...
3. How could an Old Testament character be saved by grace, if grace "did not come until Christ died on the N.T. cross"?
...

Please tell, where in the OT blood is demanded for forgiveness of sins?

It's first demonstrated by the fact that Christ died (shed his blood) before the world was created to make atonement:

Revelation 13:8 (KJV) 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This "lamb" was Christ.

John 1:29 (KJV) 29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Isaiah 53:10 (KJV)
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Then from the creation of the world, the same pattern followed suit when sin came into the world. Like the way God replaced Adam and Eve's covering (fig leaves) which was insufficient, by providing them coats of skins which pointed to the requirement of bloodshed in order to have the proper covering.

Genesis 3:21 (KJV) 21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

This picture, of blood being demanded was given in many different ways because this law was always the same:

Exodus 29:31-33 (KJV) 31 And thou shalt take the ram of the consecration, and seethe his flesh in the holy place. 32 And Aaron and his sons shall eat the flesh of the ram, and the bread that is in the basket, by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 33 And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them: but a stranger shall not eat thereof, because they are holy.

And this is repeated many times thereafter, as in the blood required for the angel of death to passoover everyone who had the blood on their door posts. Then God reveals why bloodshed was necessary, it was to make atonement.

Leviticus 17:11 (KJV) 11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

In this passage, God is also equating the blood with one's life. That's why the animal had to be sacrificed (put to death) in order to retrieve the blood.

And this picture was repeated time after time, that blood (death) was required for atonement, because that's what God'slaw demanded:

Exodus 30:10 (KJV) 10 And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.

The problem with that is, you may have misinterpreted those scriptures, when they don't directly say what you say.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #1]

CONTRADICTIONS TO FACE IF YOU BELIEVE CHRIST PAID FOR SINS ON THE NEW TESTAMENT CROSS

There is just the one cross.

There is no "New Testament Cross" or "Old Testament Cross." Where does that idea come from?

The word "cross" appears 28 times in the New Testament and zero times in the Old Testament.

So your heading has no meaning.
<===============================================>

Jesus gained an inheritance of everlasting life by living a sinless human life under the Old Testament Covenant.

His inheritance is then offered to those who believe in Him as their Savior under the New Testament Covenant.

That is the only path to salvation -- one must believe in Jesus as their Savior. Those who do so have their names written in the Book of Life.

Jesus had to die because He was a human, so that death is not what actually saves us. We are saved because He offers us His reward of everlasting life which He earned by living a sinless life under the Old Testament Covenant.

So everlasting life becomes a gift of God through Jesus Christ. Sound familiar?

<============================================>

Everlasting life was never the result of sacrificing a human life. That is a pagan concept.

The New Testament Covenant became effective at the moment of His death. That's the significance of that event.

[Eddie Ramos]

...
2. How could Christ forgive sins before dying to pay for them, which would violate his own law?

Hebrews 9:22 (KJV 1900)
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission (no firgiveness).
...
3. How could an Old Testament character be saved by grace, if grace "did not come until Christ died on the N.T. cross"?
...

Please tell, where in the OT blood is demanded for forgiveness of sins?

It's first demonstrated by the fact that Christ died (shed his blood) before the world was created to make atonement:

Revelation 13:8 (KJV) 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This "lamb" was Christ.

John 1:29 (KJV) 29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Isaiah 53:10 (KJV)
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Then from the creation of the world, the same pattern followed suit when sin came into the world. Like the way God replaced Adam and Eve's covering (fig leaves) which was insufficient, by providing them coats of skins which pointed to the requirement of bloodshed in order to have the proper covering.

Genesis 3:21 (KJV) 21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

This picture, of blood being demanded was given in many different ways because this law was always the same:

Exodus 29:31-33 (KJV) 31 And thou shalt take the ram of the consecration, and seethe his flesh in the holy place. 32 And Aaron and his sons shall eat the flesh of the ram, and the bread that is in the basket, by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 33 And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them: but a stranger shall not eat thereof, because they are holy.

And this is repeated many times thereafter, as in the blood required for the angel of death to passoover everyone who had the blood on their door posts. Then God reveals why bloodshed was necessary, it was to make atonement.

Leviticus 17:11 (KJV) 11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

In this passage, God is also equating the blood with one's life. That's why the animal had to be sacrificed (put to death) in order to retrieve the blood.

And this picture was repeated time after time, that blood (death) was required for atonement, because that's what God'slaw demanded:

Exodus 30:10 (KJV) 10 And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.

The problem with that is, you may have misinterpreted those scriptures, when they don't directly say what you say.

Ok, but if you provide no biblical correction, then how do we proceed from here? Have I put the wrong scriptures forth to answer your question? Which verse do you think is not being interpreted correctly and why? Answering these questions can help us go to the scriptures and examine your responses in light of the whole Bible. And I only provided a few scriptures, but the whole Bible is filled with verses that teach that very thing that you seem to think it doesn't. It teaches that death (blood, because that's where the life of the flesh is) is required to make atonement for sins. That's what all the old Testament bloodshed animals pointed to. They pointed to Christ's blood (his life).

Luke 22:20 (KJV) 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

[1213]

Ok, but if you provide no biblical correction, then how do we proceed from here? Have I put the wrong scriptures forth to answer your question? Which verse do you think is not being interpreted correctly and why? ...

Why add meanings that are not directly said? I think it is not necessary and can potentially lead to a wrong path. Bible shows Jesus had the right to forgive and he did that without any demand of blood. And also disciples of Jesus have the right to forgive sins and no blood required in the scripture.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

Obviously, Jesus died because of that and spilled his blood, which was known from the beginning that it will happen. But still, I don't think it can be supported by the Bible that God demanded that and could not forgive without that.