A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

[POI]

Taken from "1213" --> http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/Owning_slaves.html

Notably, the quote below:

Owning slaves?

According to the Old Testament, peoples at least had right to own slaves. Many wonder, is that same right also valid for today’s disciples of Jesus.

1) Jesus didn’t directly deny owning slaves. So maybe it can be taught that it is valid right today also. However Jesus taught to do same to others that you want others to do to you. Therefore, if you don’t want yourself to be slave, don’t keep others in that position.

2) Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
Mat. 7:12

3) It is also good to notice that disciples of Jesus shouldn’t consider themselves superior to others. If we are all brothers and sisters, how could we keep other as a slave? Rather we should be servants to each other.

*************************

My response, thus far:

1) You are right, Jesus never tells humans that slavery is wrong. Instead, He looks to endorse the following two Bible passages A) and B):

A) Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. (Col. 3:22-24)

B) All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2 Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare[a] of their slaves. (1 Tim. 6:1-2)

A) This massage tells the slave to remain subservient, work as hard as one can; even when the master is away. This way, God will be proud of you, via the slave.

B) Respect your slave master. If the master happens to be a Christian, respect them even more.

As you can see, Jesus appears not to be against slavery at all. In fact, He condones such practices.

2) If this were the case for all humans, (the free and the enslaved), then Jesus would not have endorsed instructions for slavery.

3) Please remember the 'golden rule' was already expressed in the OT (i.e.) "you shall love your neighbor as yourself"(Lev. 19:18). Either never speak about the topic of slavery at all, or, tell the Bible readers that slavery is 'wrong'. Instead, the OT already instructs on how you may obtain slaves, how you may beat your slaves, and informs the reader that the slave master can own the slave for life, and also treat them as their property for life. The NT then merely reinforces such OT instruction.

Question(s) for debate:

Why didn't Jesus just abolish slavery practices, or never mention slavery at all? Seems rather confusing, to have left what He left in the NT Bible....?

Answer (post #401)

I'd say that the matter is clear. The OT does refer to chattel slavery - for foreigners. The Bible gives rules (attempting to be fair, no denial) for Jews enslaving others. It does not look like God, knowing that slavery is going to be a no- no in the age when his religion is user scrutiny, thought that he should make it clear that it was wrong. It looks like God thought it was ok, within limits. Paul gave it a thumbs -up and Jesus at least by not commenting, seems to be unaware that it is going to be one of the worst human crimes in modern times.

Thus, it is one more reason to believe the Bible, cover to cover...as the word of men of the time. And that's all it is. It is not even a valid guide to life- advice, morals or social conduct. It is, like any other book, judged by human moral standards, and I can prove it. If Christians did not judge the Bible by human moral codes, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[TRANSPONDER]

No It isn't slavery. It is ..what is it when a father arranges for his son to be tortured to death so that a failing franchise can cash in the insurance and avoid bankruptcy?

Ah yes, murder. Good thing that Jesus made all things new, as that was forbidden in the Old T.

......


p.s something slipped. I thought I was responding to a post of Wootah's saying that Jesus on the cross was acting as God's slave - an example we should all desire to follow.

Not me, dude.

[POI]

Also to add. Christ the son obeys the Father perfectly even unto death on a cross. Now that is slavery there. I pray for the Spirirt that we might all follow God's example.

I have to ask... Is all 'slavery' equal? Is an 18th century African American slave, from Mississippi, the SAME as all other situations regarding 'slavery'? Assuming your answer is no, this means you too can distinguish the difference in 'slavery'

So moving forward, I'm going to wipe away the apologetics I continue to read from you, and ask that you be honest.

Here are the facts about what the Bible states --- (if you care to dispute any of these findings, I have receipts):

- You can make humans slaves for life.
- They are to become your property for life.
- The slave master beating is NOT to be punished, as long as there is no death or teeth/eye loss.
- Your slaves are to come from around you.
- Women slaves are sometimes not to go free, where-as some Hebrew male slaves can go free.
- Children, born into slavery, are to remain with the slave master.

So I ask anew... When "Transponder" speaks of chattel slavery, what part of this concept do you fail to grasp? Or do you grasp it and are just another apologist practicing spin --- by severely muddying the waters about 'slavery'?

[Wootah]

No It isn't slavery. It is ..what is it when a father arranges for his son to be tortured to death so that a failing franchise can cash in the insurance and avoid bankruptcy?

Ah yes, murder. Good thing that Jesus made all things new, as that was forbidden in the Old T.

......


p.s something slipped. I thought I was responding to a post of Wootah's saying that Jesus on the cross was acting as God's slave - an example we should all desire to follow.

Not me, dude.

All I have been arguing is that slavery is endemic to the world and to the Bible and to think otherwise is to not be aligned with reality. To think otherwise is to enable more slavery not less. A metaphor might be like your weight, if you don't watch what you eat you will get fatter.

Of course, 'not me dude' but one day you might see how 'not me dude' is enabling the sins of the world and then you might find yourself saying 'not me dude but thank you Lord that you did'. 'Not me dude' is the sin of omission.

Genesis 3:11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”

12 The man said, "Not me dude. The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”

[Wootah]

Also to add. Christ the son obeys the Father perfectly even unto death on a cross. Now that is slavery there. I pray for the Spirirt that we might all follow God's example.

I have to ask... Is all 'slavery' equal? Is an 18th century African American slave, from Mississippi, the SAME as all other situations regarding 'slavery'? Assuming your answer is no, this means you too can distinguish the difference in 'slavery'

So moving forward, I'm going to wipe away the apologetics I continue to read from you, and ask that you be honest.

Here are the facts about what the Bible states --- (if you care to dispute any of these findings, I have receipts):

- You can make humans slaves for life.
- They are to become your property for life.
- The slave master beating is NOT to be punished, as long as there is no death or teeth/eye loss.
- Your slaves are to come from around you.
- Women slaves are sometimes not to go free, where-as some Hebrew male slaves can go free.
- Children, born into slavery, are to remain with the slave master.

So I ask anew... When "Transponder" speaks of chattel slavery, what part of this concept do you fail to grasp? Or do you grasp it and are just another apologist practicing spin --- by severely muddying the waters about 'slavery'?

It's all chattel slavery, from top to bottom, at least the 18th-century slaves knew what their status was. You guys express a profound ignorance of reality happening in the world today. You can't be anti-slavery if you don't see the slavery and how you are a slave master. You can't fight racism or any other injustice until you see that you are the racist. A patient doesn't go to the doctor if they aren't sick. Summing up, you can't fight sin, until you see you are a sinner.

When the rich West cries out against climate change and demands electric cars they are crying out for more slave labour.



Jesus Matthew 5: 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. It's a call to slavery.

--
The Bible commands in the OT are very clear on slavery.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical ... t-slavery/

ex 21:2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything.

OK so if a Jew takes you as a slave, then convert.

ex 21:16 “Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.

OK so stealing people is out. How do they acquire slaves then?

Lev 25:39 “ ‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves.

Don't mistreat each other.

ex 21:20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

Killing slaves gets punished. We have a lot of fetishes about violence in 2022. I personally think a good smack in the head would have benefitted me a lot when I was younger.

Deut:23:15 If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand them over to their master. 16 Let them live among you wherever they like and in whatever town they choose. Do not oppress them.

Actually, freedom to move to a better master is at the core of ending slavery.

--
I would say the analysis of slavery in the Bible is complicated. I think we on this internet are arguing from our privilege over issues that do not seem relevant today but might seem relevant to ourselves in the very near future. Imagine in our culture applying the above and loving one another as much as the OT asks us to.

[TRANSPONDER]

No It isn't slavery. It is ..what is it when a father arranges for his son to be tortured to death so that a failing franchise can cash in the insurance and avoid bankruptcy?

Ah yes, murder. Good thing that Jesus made all things new, as that was forbidden in the Old T.

......


p.s something slipped. I thought I was responding to a post of Wootah's saying that Jesus on the cross was acting as God's slave - an example we should all desire to follow.

Not me, dude.

All I have been arguing is that slavery is endemic to the world and to the Bible and to think otherwise is to not be aligned with reality. To think otherwise is to enable more slavery not less. A metaphor might be like your weight, if you don't watch what you eat you will get fatter.

Of course, 'not me dude' but one day you might see how 'not me dude' is enabling the sins of the world and then you might find yourself saying 'not me dude but thank you Lord that you did'. 'Not me dude' is the sin of omission.

Genesis 3:11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”

12 The man said, "Not me dude. The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”

I get your points of course. Social problems are endemic. Yet crime is distinct from the social struggles we all have. And within crime, we distinguish armed robbery from child abuse. We just do. So we don't confuse slavery with tax fraud. We know what slavery is and what it isn't. Slavery in the Bible is real slavery, even if some conditions are made for Hebrews And the question remains: why doesn't God say 'This is wrong; I forbid it,' along with mixing wool and linen and not picking up sticks on the wrong day. It's hard to escape the conclusions that really, He's fine with it. Or, rather not He, but the men who wrote the book were fine with it. That's the conclusion here. As with all aspects of the Problem of Evil.

[POI]

Before I begin, I have to ask... Are you just trolling here? Really... It's a real question. It's as if you did not read my response, and went into your apologetics spheal...

Also to add. Christ the son obeys the Father perfectly even unto death on a cross. Now that is slavery there. I pray for the Spirirt that we might all follow God's example.

I have to ask... Is all 'slavery' equal? Is an 18th century African American slave, from Mississippi, the SAME as all other situations regarding 'slavery'? Assuming your answer is no, this means you too can distinguish the difference in 'slavery'

So moving forward, I'm going to wipe away the apologetics I continue to read from you, and ask that you be honest.

Here are the facts about what the Bible states --- (if you care to dispute any of these findings, I have receipts):

- You can make humans slaves for life.
- They are to become your property for life.
- The slave master beating is NOT to be punished, as long as there is no death or teeth/eye loss.
- Your slaves are to come from around you.
- Women slaves are sometimes not to go free, where-as some Hebrew male slaves can go free.
- Children, born into slavery, are to remain with the slave master.

So I ask anew... When "Transponder" speaks of chattel slavery, what part of this concept do you fail to grasp? Or do you grasp it and are just another apologist practicing spin --- by severely muddying the waters about 'slavery'?

It's all chattel slavery, from top to bottom, at least the 18th-century slaves knew what their status was. You guys express a profound ignorance of reality happening in the world today. You can't be anti-slavery if you don't see the slavery and how you are a slave master. You can't fight racism or any other injustice until you see that you are the racist. A patient doesn't go to the doctor if they aren't sick. Summing up, you can't fight sin, until you see you are a sinner.

Let me get this straight.... Person A) and B) are the SAME?.?.

Person A): Works 9 -6, M-F at Starbucks, pays 15% taxes, gets 2 weeks vacation a year, 8 holiday days paid. Gets paid OT if working over 8 hours a day. Can apply for workers comp if needed, can quit and leave, etc etc etc...

Person B): 18th-century slave works 18 hours days, 7 days a week, sleeps on the ground, is fed once day (leftovers), whipped at will with no punishment applied to the master, has no vacation accrual, no sick time accrual, no worker's compensation, no retirement, and is kept and treated as property for life.

Okay, they are both apparently "slaves". Now let's play a quick game called "pick from the bag". You are instructed, by God, to pick from the bag. The bag contains just as many A)'s and B)'s in the bag -- but you cannot look when you pick one.

Follow up question... Which one do you HOPE you get (A or B)? Because, you see... if it's all the same, then you shouldn't care which one you get

The Bible commands in the OT are very clear on slavery.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical ... t-slavery/

ex 21:2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything.

OK so if a Jew takes you as a slave, then convert.

God's best plan is convert or be someone's "B" for life? What a "loving" God.

ex 21:16 “Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.

OK so stealing people is out. How do they acquire slaves then?

Easy. Breed them. Kind of like you do with livestock or dogs. You buy one, then breed. It's a great business model, and the Bible condones it...

If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.

You see, "God" has all the loopholes covered

(YOU) Lev 25:39 “ ‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves.

Don't mistreat each other.

ex 21:20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.[/quote]
Killing slaves gets punished. We have a lot of fetishes about violence in 2022. I personally think a good smack in the head would have benefitted me a lot when I was younger.

(ME) This is why slaves were whipped from the back side. You can't likely kill them and/or knock out their eyes/teeth. And God states there is to be NO punishment, as long as these three criteria are met.

Again, "God" has all the loopholes covered

[JehovahsWitness]

Jesus Matthew 5: 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. It's a call to slavery

DID JESUS PROMOTE SLAVEY IN MATTHEW 5:41?

Jesus neither condemned nor endosed slavery to humans. He did extract principles from the situation that existed in His day To teach his disciples. For example, by the time Jesus walked the earth the Jews lived under the Roman authority. Under Roman law, any subject could be forced by a Roman Officer, to render a service in the course of his execution of his duties. Jesus used this situation to teach self sacrifice.

It was not an appeal that his disciples sell themselves into slavery.







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To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SLAVERY , SLAVE BEATING and ...ABOLITION

[Purple Knight]

And within crime, we distinguish armed robbery from child abuse. We just do. So we don't confuse slavery with tax fraud. We know what slavery is and what it isn't. Slavery in the Bible is real slavery, even if some conditions are made for Hebrews.

But if people still suffer, in exactly the same way, in exactly the same conditions, the only thing it does to make a distinction is to invalidate the suffering of the people suffering in the way that does not happen to be called slavery.

If someone is able to use the act that is called tax fraud to force people to toil for his benefit and enrich himself but never them, I will say it ought to make no difference what it is called.

[TRANSPONDER]

And within crime, we distinguish armed robbery from child abuse. We just do. So we don't confuse slavery with tax fraud. We know what slavery is and what it isn't. Slavery in the Bible is real slavery, even if some conditions are made for Hebrews.

But if people still suffer, in exactly the same way, in exactly the same conditions, the only thing it does to make a distinction is to invalidate the suffering of the people suffering in the way that does not happen to be called slavery.

If someone is able to use the act that is called tax fraud to force people to toil for his benefit and enrich himself but never them, I will say it ought to make no difference what it is called.

You may say what you like, but slavery (chattel slavery) is not about tax fraud or people suffering (e.g in famine, flood or war, none of which is slavery) or about exploitation of a workforce (IF they are not owned as property, potentially for life and not permitted to move to other jobs,- in which case, if they were, they would be chattel slaves). I see see no purpose in trying to blur or confuse these understanding of what slavery is or is not other than as part of some effort to pretend that what is slavery in the Bible isn't slavery at all, in order to excuse God for not denouncing it.

[POI]

And within crime, we distinguish armed robbery from child abuse. We just do. So we don't confuse slavery with tax fraud. We know what slavery is and what it isn't. Slavery in the Bible is real slavery, even if some conditions are made for Hebrews.

But if people still suffer, in exactly the same way, in exactly the same conditions, the only thing it does to make a distinction is to invalidate the suffering of the people suffering in the way that does not happen to be called slavery.

If someone is able to use the act that is called tax fraud to force people to toil for his benefit and enrich himself but never them, I will say it ought to make no difference what it is called.

Post 374 please?