A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

[POI]

Taken from "1213" --> http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/Owning_slaves.html

Notably, the quote below:

Owning slaves?

According to the Old Testament, peoples at least had right to own slaves. Many wonder, is that same right also valid for today’s disciples of Jesus.

1) Jesus didn’t directly deny owning slaves. So maybe it can be taught that it is valid right today also. However Jesus taught to do same to others that you want others to do to you. Therefore, if you don’t want yourself to be slave, don’t keep others in that position.

2) Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
Mat. 7:12

3) It is also good to notice that disciples of Jesus shouldn’t consider themselves superior to others. If we are all brothers and sisters, how could we keep other as a slave? Rather we should be servants to each other.

*************************

My response, thus far:

1) You are right, Jesus never tells humans that slavery is wrong. Instead, He looks to endorse the following two Bible passages A) and B):

A) Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. (Col. 3:22-24)

B) All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2 Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare[a] of their slaves. (1 Tim. 6:1-2)

A) This massage tells the slave to remain subservient, work as hard as one can; even when the master is away. This way, God will be proud of you, via the slave.

B) Respect your slave master. If the master happens to be a Christian, respect them even more.

As you can see, Jesus appears not to be against slavery at all. In fact, He condones such practices.

2) If this were the case for all humans, (the free and the enslaved), then Jesus would not have endorsed instructions for slavery.

3) Please remember the 'golden rule' was already expressed in the OT (i.e.) "you shall love your neighbor as yourself"(Lev. 19:18). Either never speak about the topic of slavery at all, or, tell the Bible readers that slavery is 'wrong'. Instead, the OT already instructs on how you may obtain slaves, how you may beat your slaves, and informs the reader that the slave master can own the slave for life, and also treat them as their property for life. The NT then merely reinforces such OT instruction.

Question(s) for debate:

Why didn't Jesus just abolish slavery practices, or never mention slavery at all? Seems rather confusing, to have left what He left in the NT Bible....?

Answer (post #401)

I'd say that the matter is clear. The OT does refer to chattel slavery - for foreigners. The Bible gives rules (attempting to be fair, no denial) for Jews enslaving others. It does not look like God, knowing that slavery is going to be a no- no in the age when his religion is user scrutiny, thought that he should make it clear that it was wrong. It looks like God thought it was ok, within limits. Paul gave it a thumbs -up and Jesus at least by not commenting, seems to be unaware that it is going to be one of the worst human crimes in modern times.

Thus, it is one more reason to believe the Bible, cover to cover...as the word of men of the time. And that's all it is. It is not even a valid guide to life- advice, morals or social conduct. It is, like any other book, judged by human moral standards, and I can prove it. If Christians did not judge the Bible by human moral codes, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[Candle]

[Replying to Miles in post #2]

Explain how owning a slave is "not moral."

Not owning others is simply part of my moral code. Obviously your god feels it's very differently; that it's quite alright to own other human beings. To buy male and female slaves from among the surrounding nations. Strike them with a rod as long as they don't die within a day or two. Bequeath them to one's sons. And to even sell one's daughter into slavery.


Too bad the practice has since been outlawed. Eh?

.

If a person strikes another, it is arguably immoral. That is NOT the issue.

No, but it does point out god's sense of right and wrong (morality), and, in this case, what I consider to be his immorality. Why is god content with having others deprived of their rights and freedoms, and has no qualms about letting them be subjugated as property to the whims of an owner? Would you like to be a slave?......... Perhaps you would.

Let me ask you:

Do you believe owning another person as property to be moral?.... Why? Why not?

Do you believe that buying male and female slaves from among the surrounding nations to be moral?.... Why? Why not?

Do you believe striking a slave with a rod, as long as they don't die within a day or two, to be moral?.... Why? Why not?

Do you believe that bequeathing a slave to one's sons to be moral?.... Why? Why not?

Do you believe that selling one's daughter into slavery to be moral?.... Why? Why not?

I don't believe any of the actions I've pointed out to be good, but rather wrong. i.e. immoral.

What, specifically, about the ownership of another person is inherently immoral?

THAT is the issue.

Then it comes down to empathy. I empathize with those under the subjugation of ownership. If I understand and share the feelings of someone put under a certain state of existence to be good, then I'll consider that putting to be moral. However, if I find such a state of existence to be bad, then I'll consider the putting to be immoral.

For the slave, (s)he's been put in an undesirable state of existence. And undesirable states of being should be avoided whenever possible, which should apply to "all god's children." Slaves don't like to be subjugated; losing their freedom to the ownership of someone else, and I can empathize with that. Hence, I find such ownership to be wrong; so wrong as to be immoral. Yet, for whatever reason your god is just fine with life-long subjugation, even making up rules for how it should be carried out.

Hardly a nice guy, and IMO certainly not worth venerating and worshiping. But that's me. I prefer nice to nasty.


.

Everything about what you claim is immoral is based on abuse, not ownership.

Your presumption is that being owned was an "undesirable state of existence." Joseph was a slave in Egypt. He was second only to Pharaoh. Daniel was a slave under 3 different Babylonian kings. He became wealthy and was greatly admired. Abraham's chief slave was trusted with the administration of his wealth and the task of finding Isaac a wife. 300+ of his slaves fought with him in a battle against a group of other kings. If their lives were so awful, I wonder why they would do that.

A Hebrew slave could sell himself to another person for 7 years. After 7 years, he could opt to stay for life. If a guy's choices are "starve because I have no property, or cattle," or "live a pretty comfortable life as a slave," the latter might be viable.

Everything you imagine about slavery is based on American slaves in the South. So far, other than abuse, you have yet to present a moral argument against it.

When you can answer my question, I can answer yours.

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #2]

Explain how owning a slave is "not moral."

Not owning others is simply part of my moral code. Obviously your god feels it's very differently; that it's quite alright to own other human beings. To buy male and female slaves from among the surrounding nations. Strike them with a rod as long as they don't die within a day or two. Bequeath them to one's sons. And to even sell one's daughter into slavery.


Too bad the practice has since been outlawed. Eh?

.

If a person strikes another, it is arguably immoral. That is NOT the issue.

No, but it does point out god's sense of right and wrong (morality), and, in this case, what I consider to be his immorality. Why is god content with having others deprived of their rights and freedoms, and has no qualms about letting them be subjugated as property to the whims of an owner? Would you like to be a slave?......... Perhaps you would.

Let me ask you:

Do you believe owning another person as property to be moral?.... Why? Why not?

Do you believe that buying male and female slaves from among the surrounding nations to be moral?.... Why? Why not?

Do you believe striking a slave with a rod, as long as they don't die within a day or two, to be moral?.... Why? Why not?

Do you believe that bequeathing a slave to one's sons to be moral?.... Why? Why not?

Do you believe that selling one's daughter into slavery to be moral?.... Why? Why not?

I don't believe any of the actions I've pointed out to be good, but rather wrong. i.e. immoral.

What, specifically, about the ownership of another person is inherently immoral?

THAT is the issue.

Then it comes down to empathy. I empathize with those under the subjugation of ownership. If I understand and share the feelings of someone put under a certain state of existence to be good, then I'll consider that putting to be moral. However, if I find such a state of existence to be bad, then I'll consider the putting to be immoral.

For the slave, (s)he's been put in an undesirable state of existence. And undesirable states of being should be avoided whenever possible, which should apply to "all god's children." Slaves don't like to be subjugated; losing their freedom to the ownership of someone else, and I can empathize with that. Hence, I find such ownership to be wrong; so wrong as to be immoral. Yet, for whatever reason your god is just fine with life-long subjugation, even making up rules for how it should be carried out.

Hardly a nice guy, and IMO certainly not worth venerating and worshiping. But that's me. I prefer nice to nasty.


.

When you can answer my question, I can answer yours.

Thing is, I don't care about any answer you may have. My post was solely for the benefit of the other members here.

.

[brunumb]

[Replying to Miles in post #2]

Explain how owning a slave is "not moral."

It is a violation of our free will for starters.

[brunumb]

... the Biblical recognition that slaves did not want to be slaves but preferred to be free, both in the OT and the New.

Not necessarily.

EXODUS. 21:5, 6

“If the slave should insistently say, ‘I really love my master, my wife and my sons; ‘ I do not want to go out as one set free,’ then his master must bring him near to the true God and must bring him up against the door or the doorpost; and his master must pierce his ear through with an awl, and he must be his slave to time indefinite.”​

IF. What about IF NOT? Slavery involves the denial of the individual's rights and their free will. All attempts to justify the practice are just putting lipstick on a pig.

[Candle]

[Replying to Miles in post #2]

Explain how owning a slave is "not moral."

It is a violation of our free will for starters.

So is going to prison. Is incarceration immoral?

Perhaps an examination of the circumstances that result in slavery is in order.

[brunumb]

[Replying to Miles in post #2]

Explain how owning a slave is "not moral."

It is a violation of our free will for starters.

So is going to prison. Is incarceration immoral?

Perhaps an examination of the circumstances that result in slavery is in order.

You mean like invading a community, killing the inhabitants but keeping some people as your own personal property?

[JehovahsWitness]

For the slave, (s)he's been put in an undesirable state of existence.

What is indesirable about it?

Hmmm. Can't think of a thing, particularly when one thinks of all the perks of slavery.

That is my point exactly. Ownership of itself is not inherently bad, it is what it is. Since you cannot think of what is bad about it how can you make a case that is is?



JW

[Miles]

For the slave, (s)he's been put in an undesirable state of existence.

What is indesirable about it?

Hmmm. Can't think of a thing, particularly when one thinks of all the perks of slavery.

That is my point exactly. Ownership of itself is not inherently bad, it is what it is. Since you cannot think of what is bad about it how can you make a case that is is?

..........................

You know.

satire
[ sat-ahyuhr ]
noun
the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, to expose, denounce, or deride the folly of institutions, people, or social structures:

.

[Wootah]

Probably the biggest issue with slavery is the same as socialism - the society sees no reason to innovate or maximise production because you can just use more slaves.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Miles in post #2]

Explain how owning a slave is "not moral."

It is a violation of our free will for starters.

So is going to prison. Is incarceration immoral?

Perhaps an examination of the circumstances that result in slavery is in order.

Prison is used because persons have broken the law. They are themselves to blame. If prison is used to incarcerate people without good reason (e.g saying they would like a change of government) then yes, it's immoral and we have regimes that do it getting slapped with accusations violation of human rights. Even then, this is generally not for life except where it was and this is usually kept secret and denied. e.g China's (alleged) Uigur labour - camps. I really don't want to believe that you are serious in your argument here. I hope and trust that you are just trying to save the Bible and don't really think slavery's ok, really.

For the slave, (s)he's been put in an undesirable state of existence.

What is indesirable about it?

Hmmm. Can't think of a thing, particularly when one thinks of all the perks of slavery.

That is my point exactly. Ownership of itself is not inherently bad, it is what it is. Since you cannot think of what is bad about it how can you make a case that is is?



JW

Tell me, tell me please, that this is just desperate wriggling to excuse the Bible and you people don't really think that slavery - ownership of people who haven't committed a crime, for life - is not inherently bad. Either way I find myself again very thankful that I'm an atheist, a rationalist and a humanist, for the High moral ground and a lot more.