The 144,000 in JW theology

[Wootah]

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?

[2timothy316]

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?

Their eschatology has changed many times over the years, inconsistency and confusion abound.

So it all depends when you ask.

At least Witness do change. I wouldn't be a part of a religion that didn't. I'm not confused at all. I know of all the changes and why they were changed. I wouldn't be surprised at more changes to come.
There are many that keep doctrines that people know are false but still follow them like they were true. Like a certain holiday that just past.
Bottom line is just because people don't start off having a clear picture of what is to come doesn't make them false prophets. Otherwise no one would look at the 10 day forecast on weather websites.

What is taught is what human leaders want to teach,

Yes I agree, and what Witnesses WANT to teach is what is true. So when we see we are not teaching what is true, we change it.
What many religions WANT to teach is what people WANT to hear. We don't teach what people WANT to hear and that a major reason we don't have people becoming Witnesses in troves.

Like a weatherman, they WANT to give people an accurate forecast of next week's weather. But they might change the forecast from day to day as next week comes closer because the weather patterns are easier to predict the closer you are to next week.

This and many other "organized" institutions are human led organizations, they are glorified social clubs where conformity is required.

Like pretty much every such organization they have their own specific "statement of beliefs".

I too have a statement of beliefs it is called "The Bible" nothing more, nothing less, nothing added, nothing removed.

Your opinions have been noted. Yet to conclude one is like all and all are like one is a logical fallacy.

[Sherlock Holmes]

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?

Their eschatology has changed many times over the years, inconsistency and confusion abound.

So it all depends when you ask.

At least Witness do change. I wouldn't be a part of a religion that didn't. I'm not confused at all. I know of all the changes and why they were changed. I wouldn't be surprised at more changes to come.
There are many that keep doctrines that people know are false but still follow them like they were true. Like a certain holiday that just past.
Bottom line is just because people don't start off having a clear picture of what is to come doesn't make them false prophets. Otherwise no one would look at the 10 day forecast on weather websites.

What is taught is what human leaders want to teach,

Yes I agree, and what Witnesses WANT to teach is what is true. So when we see we are not teaching what is true, we change it.
What many religions WANT to teach is what people WANT to hear. We don't teach what people WANT to hear and that a major reason we don't have people becoming Witnesses in troves.

Like a weatherman, they WANT to give people an accurate forecast of next week's weather. But they might change the forecast from day to day as next week comes closer because the weather patterns are easier to predict the closer you are to next week.

This and many other "organized" institutions are human led organizations, they are glorified social clubs where conformity is required.

Like pretty much every such organization they have their own specific "statement of beliefs".

I too have a statement of beliefs it is called "The Bible" nothing more, nothing less, nothing added, nothing removed.

Your opinions have been noted. Yet to conclude one is like all and all are like one is a logical fallacy.

I spent many many years researching this and other groups, I was at one time close to the WWCG but never became a member and I was right not to do so.

These are social clubs, people like to feel they "belong" like others to do their thinking for them, indoctrination is common, fear is never too far away, the idea that "we are the one's who know" is also a very common theme.

The eschatology changed because what had been taught turned out to be wrong, if teaching things that could be wrong next year is acceptable then why even bother teaching it? why listen to it and defend it?

Christ never made such mistakes, he never said "Look what I told you last month is actually - now that I think about it - not true, you see, what I meant to say was...".

We have no need of human organizations, we can each establish our link with God without relying on human intermediaries, we don't need human help to relate to God.

These groups all act if they are necessary, that without them one is doomed, all part of a deception.

Not one JW (or other denomination) has ever been able to accept let alone explain this:

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Even your "New World" translation renders this the same.

This is the basis for "universalism" JWs and most other groups do not grasp it, yes JW's do not teach eternal punishing but they do not teach that every single human will receive eternal life.

Why do you think it is called a "Gospel"? "good news"? can that news get any better?

[tam]

Peace to you,

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?

Their eschatology has changed many times over the years, inconsistency and confusion abound.



So it all depends when you ask.

Don't forget that currently (or I suppose it could have changed again)... it is within "the generation OF the generation of 1914". The "overlapping generation" phrase. Because of course the timing was AGAIN proving to be wrong.

How many times do they have to be mistaken before people start realizing that the 1914 doctrine is wrong? Instead of committing error upon error. Again, leading people to refuse the body and blood of Christ. They even have memorial every year to do just that. To pass the bread and wine around the room, so that (most) everyone can refuse to eat and drink the body and blood of Christ, that He gave for us.

In all the years that I have attended the memorial (by invitation, written or personal), I know of no one who has partaken other than me. Though I was feeling so down about that the last year I attended (before Covid stopped the in-person public memorial), I asked my Lord to please let me know if there was someone, anyone who wanted to say yes to Him. And there was someone! A little one, who saw me partake (probably the first time he ever saw someone partake), and got very excited and announced out loud that he wanted to do that too. I was overjoyed, not only had the little one announced what he wanted OUT LOUD for anyone (including me) to hear, my dear Lord had shown me what I asked, refreshed me and given me hope. (The little one's parents were lovely with him - though the religion is designed to discourage people from partaking. But - as Christ said - "My sheep listen to my voice".) For me, I was just filled with so much love, for my dear Lord of course always, and for that dear little one.

Out of the mouth of babes.



Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[2timothy316]

[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #442]

Christ never made such mistakes

No one is like Christ.
So if you're looking for perfection from a person or group, you will not find it for, “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Ro 3:23)
So now what?

"This is the basis for "universalism" JWs and most other groups do not grasp it, yes JW's do not teach eternal punishing but they do not teach that every single human will receive eternal life.

Jesus didn't teach every single human will receive eternal life either. Read Matthew 25:46. If Jesus didn't then why should we?

[Sherlock Holmes]

[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #442]

Christ never made such mistakes

No one is like Christ.
So if you're looking for perfection from a person or group, you will not find it for, “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Ro 3:23)
So now what?

"This is the basis for "universalism" JWs and most other groups do not grasp it, yes JW's do not teach eternal punishing but they do not teach that every single human will receive eternal life.

Jesus didn't teach every single human will receive eternal life either. Read Matthew 25:46. If Jesus didn't then why should we?

If you understood what "everlasting punishment" meant then what I said would make sense.

Like so many you think in a fleshly way, you understand punishment as a fleshly concept, but Christ was speaking of spiritual matters and you have not understood.

Anyway, what does this mean then: "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." if it doesn't mean all will be made alive what does it mean to you?

[JehovahsWitness]

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Even your "New World" translation renders this the same.

No it doesnt.

1 CORINTHIANS 15: 22 - NEW WORLD TRANSLATION

For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.

EXPLANATION: In the same manner, humanity became predisposed to die (susceptible to death); thanks to the ransom, humanity will be predisposed to life.

QUESTION : Is Paul not saying every human ever born must die?

No, Jesus said some people (evidently those living befor his return) {quote} " would never die at all..." (see John 11:26) so unless it is Jesus that is mistaken, we must conclude such an interpretation of 1 Cor 15:22 is incorrect.

CONCLUSION Just as Paul is not contradicting Jesus and saying every human will have to die at least once, he is also not preaching a "universalism" where everyone alive is ultimately immortal regardless of their heart condition or actions.

JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to

ORIGINAL SIN , DEATH and ... THE RANSOM SACRIFICE

[Sherlock Holmes]

[

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Even your "New World" translation renders this the same.

No it doesnt.

1 CORINTHIANS 15: 22

For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.

EXPLANATION: In the same manner, humanity became predisposed to die (susceptible to death); thanks to the ransom, humanity will be predisposed to life.

QUESTION : Is Paul not saying every human ever born must die?

No, Jesus said some people (evidently those living befor his return) {quote} " would never die at all..." so unless it is Jesus that is mistaken, we must conclude such an interpretation of 1 Cor 15:22 IS incorrect.

JW

I don't need your "explanation" you are mistaken and the "explanation" you've embraced (form your "elders") is in error.

[JehovahsWitness]

I don't need your "explanation" you are mistaken and the "explanation" you've embraced (form your "elders") is in error.

So you claim and yet I see no counterargument. May I remind you this is a debating forum, if you would like to offer evidence based counterargument feel free to do so, but "you are wrong" is not evidence based debate it is opinion, to which you are of course welcome.


O and please, have a most pleasant evening,


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[Sherlock Holmes]

I don't need your "explanation" you are mistaken and the "explanation" you've embraced (form your "elders") is in error.

So you claim and yet I see no counterargument. May I remind you this is a debating forum, if you would like to offer evidence based counterargument feel free to do so, but "you are wrong" is not evidence based debate it is opinion, to which you are of course welcome.


O and please, have a most pleasant evening,


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

Any meaningful debate between us is likely not possible, presenting counter arguments is futile.

Members of organized groups like this (and there are a great many) have likely already embraced the "statement of beliefs" and other doctrinal baggage (else they'd not have decided to become members).

When that is done it is my experience that (like evolutionists) their modus operandi is to simply defend the organization's doctrine, under no circumstances that I can see, will a member ever be even willing to admit error.

Nothing I can say has any hope of adjusting your view because the mere suggestion that you might be incorrect is likely inconceivable, it has been taught that to be incorrect has dire consequences and so denial, blanket denial, is the best defense.

If I don't understand something in scripture, do you know what I do?

Nothing, I do nothing, I do not consult experts or authorities or "elders" I do nothing.

Why? because

Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him

[2timothy316]

[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #442]

Christ never made such mistakes

No one is like Christ.
So if you're looking for perfection from a person or group, you will not find it for, “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Ro 3:23)
So now what?

"This is the basis for "universalism" JWs and most other groups do not grasp it, yes JW's do not teach eternal punishing but they do not teach that every single human will receive eternal life.

Jesus didn't teach every single human will receive eternal life either. Read Matthew 25:46. If Jesus didn't then why should we?

If you understood what "everlasting punishment" meant then what I said would make sense.

Like so many you think in a fleshly way, you understand punishment as a fleshly concept, but Christ was speaking of spiritual matters and you have not understood.

Anyway, what does this mean then: "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." if it doesn't mean all will be made alive what does it mean to you?

I do understand what Christ was saying. It is explained in 2 Peter 3:7
"And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."

No disrespect but I don't trust people that say they are 'spirit led'. The only spirit led people I trust wrote the Bible and they say people are destroyed on the day of judgement. Christ was comparing death to life. Not life to life in Matt 25:46.