#5 Jesus on Hell Matthew 25:31-46

[Wootah]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Verse 46 says they will go away to eternal punishment but the righteous to eternal life.

If 'go away to eternal punishment' means annihilation then why presume 'righteous to eternal life' means eternal life?

There are two eternal destinations, hell and heaven being expressed in verse 46.

Isn't it biased to say eternal punishment is not eternal but eternal life is eternal life?

According to those that believe in annihilation and that the Bible doesn't teach hell, why do they interpret the first half of verse 46 as non-literal and the second half as literally?

[PinSeeker]

Rest assured that they will never have to find out...

Some will. God has been very clear about that; and Matthew 7, Luke 16, and Revelation 20 give us a graphic picture of it.

those undergoing the second death know absolutely nothing.

In the context of Ecclesiastes ~ which Ecclesiates 9:5 most certainly is ~ they will experience nothing of this life after they have passed ever again. And this leads the writer of Ecclesiastes to what he finally exhorts all of us to at the end of chapter 12, which is to remember our Creator in our youth (vv.1-8) and to fear God and keep His commandments (vv.9-14). Which, by the way... ... Jesus is referring directly to when He says, as recorded by John in John 14:15, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."

They choose to opt out of life. And God will honor their decision!

This is completely beyond the scope of what the writer of Ecclesiastes is saying throughout the book of Ecclesiastes. And that's the point.

Stop worrying!

LOL!

Grace and peace to you.

[tam]

Peace to you,

. . . context is the circumstance that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea. And all of Ecclesiastes is devoted to this life, "life under the sun." And what several posters continue to do is take it completely out of this setting, applying it to the age to come ~ in order to use it and make it out to jive with ~ which, of course, it does not ~ the belief in annihilation.

The "dead know not any thing" refers to death, and there are two possible human deaths -- the first and the second.

While humans lie in their graves after their first death, they know not any thing. They have no awareness of time.

Yes, that is correct. One sleeps (still existing) in Sheol (if not in Christ)... or under the altar (if in Christ)... then one awakes (is woken) at the resurrection (first for those in Christ, second for everyone else).

But there is no resurrection from the second death.

Those who will die their second physical human death will never know anything ever again.

That is also correct. But this is not the same as the first death, because no one here returns to "Sheol"/"Hades" (the world of the dead). Instead, all the dead who were resurrected to judgment and the second death are destroyed. They are not asleep, they are no more. No body, no 'soul', nothing exists of them, nothing is left. Hence, there can be no resurrection; there is nothing left to resurrect.

**
That being said, at the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead), some (or many, not my call) of these non-Christians are also resurrected to LIFE. We talk about how pointless an eternal existence in torment would be; but there would also be no point to a second resurrection if everyone resurrected a that time automatically received the second death. Why resurrect people from the dead, just to send them all back to death? Makes no sense.

Instead, the dead (from the second resurrection) are resurrected to judgment and the second death - OR - they are resurrected to life.

Remember that love covers over a multitude of sins; also that Christ said, be merciful and mercy will be shown you.) Also that Christ said 'whatever you did for even a least one of my brothers, you did for me." And of course God may be merciful upon whomever He chooses. Non-Christians may also have their names written in the Lamb's book of life. (Rev 20:11-15)



Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[2timothy316]

Context means taking out sentence of what is WRITTEN and not what you're interpreting.

I'm not even sure of the sense of this assertion.

That doesn't surprise me. Those that have indoctrinated for so long can't tell where the Bible ends and their doctrine begins.

No, what you said here is nonsensical. It's not grammatical, really. Not to mention it doesn't speak to what context really is.

What you add to Ecc is not context. I don't think you know what context actually is at this point. I'm having to extrapolate your definition of 'context' from your posts.

No, context is the circumstance that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea. And all of Ecclesiastes is devoted to this life, "life under the sun." And what several posters continue to do is take it completely out of this setting,

No.

Yes. that's what context is, the very definition of it.

By claiming that people still are alive after death is what is completely out of the setting of Ecclesiastes. When you add 'this life' YOU are implying there is another life in death. Ecclesiastes adds no such thing, only YOU do.

We don't add our own 'context'.

Right, but you change the context of Ecclesiastes from what it is (among other parts of Scripture). That's the point.

No, once again YOU do that. Ecclesiastes is still in harmony with all other scriptures if we read it as it says. It is not out of context if we read it as it says. It is YOU that thinks it doesn't so you add an interpretation to 'under the sun' suggesting everyone get another life not under the sun. As this is being pointed out on other threads about the death and the 2 death, the first death is what happens to everyone. As Solomon also points out. There is a chance of relief from this death as Acts 24:15 Rev 20:13. There is no relief from death for those that undergo the 2nd death of which even the 1st death is put into. (Rev 20:14)

So this whole crying about this 'context' thing is not working for me as you have presented no evidence anything is out of context. I keep asking for it, but you just keep giving me your words like, "I have said". You should count how many times you use the word "I" in your posts. It's more about you than scriptures as I hardly see you EVER post one.

...applying it to the age to come ~ in order to use it and make it out to jive with ~ which, of course, it does not ~ the belief in annihilation.

Because that is exactly what it is saying. The dead are not in a state of being alive an ANY way.

From this life, life under the sun. Nothing is being said about the age to come, which we know there is. So what you say the writer of Ecclesiastes is saying there is not what he is saying at all.

Um. No. I just quote the scripture. I don't add to it. I'm using basic reading comprehension I learned in grade school. You're right it is not talking about the future resurrection. So stop adding things about what is to come to Ecc! Stop adding period. Once again, Ecc is talking about the condition of the dead only and not their future or final judgements. So stop adding it in. It's not hard... just stop.

Just like some other posters here, to know (or in this case, to know nothing) means not mere cognitive ability regarding something or lack thereof, but rather to be aware of, experience, and understand that something. Ecclesiastes 17-18 make this very clear from the very beginning:

• "And I applied my heart to know wisdom and to know madness and folly. I perceived that this also is but a striving after wind. For in much wisdom is much vexation, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow."

Does this passage indicate that before this person "applied his/her heart," that he or she knew nothing about anything? Of course not. He or she, through conscientious, sincere effort, came to be aware of, experience, and understand, the difference between true wisdom and madness/folly.

Wisdom, Madness, folly, etc can only be experienced while alive. When they die, they know nothing. There are no cognitive abilities. Dead = dead. It can't be clearer.

And the context of Ecclesiastes is life under the sun, this life, and has nothing to do with any state or lack thereof in the age to come.

It has to do with the state they are in while dead. Again, the future of the dead is handled in other books of the Bible. However, just because a person was once dead can live again doesn't mean they are alive while dead. Being alive and dead at the same is an impossible concept. It's like being pregnant and not pregnant at the same time, it's not possible. If Jesus didn't actually die then, Jesus was raised from nothing, meaning, "Christ has not been raised up, your faith is useless; you remain in your sins." - 1 Cor 15:17.

When they have passed, they will experience nothing of life under the sun (this life) anymore.

See how you ADDED (this life) to the scripture. Do you know you're doing that? Do your fingers just add these words on their own? The words, (This life) is NOT in Ecc. YOU put that there.

But that's not to say they experience nothing ~ as if ceasing to exist in the age to come, as annihilation would suggest.

That is exactly what it is saying. They experience NOTHING. Its Christendom's doctrine that keeps shoving 'the dead are alive' down people's throats. 'The age to come' has nothing to do with condition of the dead that Ecc is explaining.

As I have said, the silence regarding the age to come in Ecclesiastes ~ just like Jesus's to the thief crucified on His left who doesn't believe ~ is deafening.

Do you know why there is silence regarding 'the age to come' in Ecc? Because things concerning 'the age to come' is not in Ecclesiastes! Oy vey!
Ecclesiastes is about the condition of the dead. And if that means they are dead now and know nothing, then that means at anytime the Bible refers to a dead person they are in a state of not knowing anything. Don't ADD anything to it.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Yes, 'the dead know nothing' contradicts the claim that people are in torment in 'hell' (Sheol/Hades/the world of the dead) right now.

[PinSeeker]

What you add to Ecc is not context.

Right, that's all you. You ~ and all annihilationists that use Ecclesiastes 9:5 to support that view ~ are adding false context. That's the point.

I don't think you know what context actually is at this point. I'm having to extrapolate your definition of 'context' from your posts.

LOL! So, I quoted the definition of 'context' verbatim from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary (so any "extrapolation" is wholly unnecessary), and you denied it, and you're telling me, that you don't think I know what 'context' is? LOL! Yeah, I think that's quite enough.

Grace and peace to you, 2timothy316. The Lord cause His face to shine on you and give you peace.

[PinSeeker]

Yes, 'the dead know nothing' contradicts the claim that people are in torment in 'hell' (Sheol/Hades/the world of the dead) right now.

If it's misread ~ put in an entirely different context ~ in the way you and others do, yes.

Grace and peace to you.

[2timothy316]

What you add to Ecc is not context.

Right, that's all you. You ~ and all annihilationists that use Ecclesiastes 9:5 to support that view ~ are adding false context. That's the point.

YOU are adding the context. Words like 'this life' and 'age to come'. Words that don't appear in Ecclesiastes. You post are peppered with additions. All one has to do is read the thread.

I don't think you know what context actually is at this point. I'm having to extrapolate your definition of 'context' from your posts.

LOL! So, I quoted the definition of 'context' verbatim from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary (so any "extrapolation" is wholly unnecessary), and you denied it, and you're telling me, that you don't think I know what 'context' is? LOL! Yeah, I think that's quite enough.

In order for something to be out of context the context has to exist in the place you say it does. When you add 'this life' and 'age to come' to the Book of Ecclesiastes you're adding to the Bible and calling it context. That is not how it works. 'This life' and 'age to come' would have to actually BE in the scriptures to cry 'out of context'.

[2timothy316]

Yes, 'the dead know nothing' contradicts the claim that people are in torment in 'hell' (Sheol/Hades/the world of the dead) right now.

If it's misread

Which I have not. I just read what it says.
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten." - Ecc 9:5
Look at me adding NOTHING. But even now as you read it you're adding to it and do not believe what you're reading without your additions.

~ put in an entirely different context ~

Which you have done, adding 'this life' and saying that Ecc speaks of 'the age to come'.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Yes, 'the dead know nothing' contradicts the claim that people are in torment in 'hell' (Sheol/Hades/the world of the dead) right now.

If it's misread ~ put in an entirely different context ~ in the way you and others do, yes.

Grace and peace to you.

No, Pinseeker it isn't.

The context is as follows:

For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.



The living know they will die is contrasted with the dead know nothing (meaning all who are dead). And we know that Solomon is talking about the same group of people for both the living and the dead. The same group of people who comprise the living (who know they will die), also comprise the dead (who know nothing) once they are dead.

AND,

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.


Peace again to you.

[PinSeeker]

While humans lie in their graves after their first death, they know not any thing. They have no awareness of time.

Yes, that is correct. One sleeps (still existing) in Sheol (if not in Christ)... or under the altar (if in Christ)... then one awakes (is woken) at the resurrection (first for those in Christ, second for everyone else).

Then was Christ lying to the thief crucified on His right when He told him, "Surely, you will be with me today in paradise"? Well, of course not, so what do you think he meant (as if to supposed He was ambiguous in any way)?

Those who will die their second physical human death will never know anything ever again.

That is also correct.

Well, they'll never know anything of ~ experience ~ temporal life ~ this life, life under the sun ~ again, once they have died physically. But they'll sure know "stuff" and be aware of "stuff" in a cognitive sense, as the dead rich man in Luke 16 does.

We talk about how pointless an eternal existence in torment would be...

But it's not, because God has said the wages of sin is death, which, as the Bible says is a state of existence away from Jesus, Who is the way, the truth, and the life. In this existence, they experience a torment/anguish that they can never get relief from, their "worm" that will not die.

...but there would also be no point to a second resurrection if everyone resurrected a that time automatically received the second death. Why resurrect people from the dead, just to send them all back to death? Makes no sense.

Well, aside from mixing the two deaths... Agreed. I'm not even sure why you thought this point needed to be made. Hm.

Non-Christians may also have their names written in the Lamb's book of life. (Rev 20:11-15)

Well, before the Judgment, which is Revelation 20:11-15. But verse 15 is clear that at the Judgment, if anyone’s name (is) not found written in the book of life ~ which, according to Revelation 13:8, is written before the foundation of the world ~ then he (or she) (is) thrown into the lake of fire (joining the devil, the beast, and the false prophet and, along with the aforementioned devil, beast, and false prophet, will be tormented day and night forever and ever (Revelation 20). These are the ones sent away by Jesus at the Judgment, those whom He never knew, drawing on Matthew 25:41-46. And that surely is not that He never knew who they were, because of course in that sense, He knows everyone, but that He never knew them in the sense that he never loved them ~ had mercy and compassion on them ~ (not that He didn't love them at all) in the same sovereign, distinguishing way that He did/does those whose names are written in the book of life, those given to them by the Father, of whom He shall lose none (John 6:39).

Grace and peace to you.