God's truth about hell

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Checkpoint
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God's truth about hell

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

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Post #41

Post by PinSeeker »

myth-one.com wrote: But earlier you wrote, "Yes, the Second Death has no end. That is, those so judged will never live again; the judgment is final and irreversible."
This is true. Much in the same way that there are those among us now who, though certainly existing, are dead, spiritually speaking (in their sin; this is the natural condition of all mankind), there will be those who experience the second death at the Judgment, and their state of spiritual death will then have no possibility of reversal.
myth-one.com wrote: Now you seem to be back on everlasting existence for non-believers. Please decide on one or the other.
I have never, am not now, and will never strayed/straying/stray one iota from this. Death, in the Bible, regarding salvation and the eternal state of any human, does not imply cessation of existence in any way whatsoever, and in fact explicitly implies otherwise.
myth-one.com wrote:
Checkpoint wrote: (The second death) is the end of death itself, and of pain, of the curse, and of the night with its darkness.
PinSeeker wrote: For those of us who are in Christ, yes.
Actually, the second death has no affect on those who are Christ's.
Absolutely agreed. Absolutely.
myth-one.com wrote:
Checkpoint wrote: What that leaves is the new order, displayed in all its glorious light and beauty and wonder, in which righteousness dwells.
PinSeeker wrote: For those of us who are in Christ, yes.
Those are the only ones left.
The only ones left on earth, yes. Absolutely. As Jesus said, the meek shall inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5).

But this is after the Judgment and the departure of those remaining dead in their sin into a place of "outer darkness," where their personal agony/anguish and regret -- their "worm" -- does not die. This is the separation of the tares from the wheat Jesus spoke of in His parable of Matthew 13:24-30, of those on Jesus's left as opposed to those on His right who enter into eternal punishment (Matthew 25:41-46 ) -- not a fleeting punishment followed by complete annihilation. No doubt.

Grace and peace to all.

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Post #42

Post by tam »

Peace to you all.


There are a few different things that are being mistaken as one thing, and though we have had this conversation before, perhaps I can help by sharing some of the understanding I have received from my Lord?



Hell (translated from Sheol/Hades): is the world of the dead (wherein the dead know nothing; the dead therein are sleeping, just as Christ described them). Everyone (except those who are in Christ) goes there; and before Christ came, both 'good' and 'bad' people went there (both Israel and non-Israel).


The Outer Darkness: is simply outside the Kingdom (yet still on the earth), where the "goats" are told to go (this occurs when Christ returns).


The Lake of Fire: is a fire that consumes (completely) anything and anyone cast within it; the lake of fire means the second death (eternal death). This occurs at the Judgment (at the end of "the thousand years", after the resurrection of the dead: when Hades gives up the dead in it).


Hell, the lake of fire, and the outer darkness are not the same thing.


**

So (after the great tribulation - which is cut short when Christ returns - and the Adversary has been locked in the abyss to keep him from deceiving the nations during the thousand years, Rev 20:2, 3):

1 - The first resurrection (and wedding of the Lamb). Christ comes and gathers His Bride up to Him (those who have died and those who are still alive) to be married. This occurs in a twinkling (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). Christ then returns with His Bride, the New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven to reign upon the earth (Rev 21:2; Rev 5:10).

At this time, all the rest of the people who are yet alive on the earth are gathered before the King (Christ), and so begins the separation of the sheep and the goats. The sheep are invited into the Kingdom; the goats are cast outside (outside the Kingdom is the outer darkness). The goats are still alive but have been sent out of the Kingdom instead of being invited into the Kingdom, hence, there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. I expect especially on the part of those who thought they would be invited in, those being referred to at Matthew 7:21-23.



See explanation for sheep and goats here (which I learned from my Lord):

viewtopic.php?p=731804#p731804




2 -At the end of the thousand years, Satan is released from the abyss and sets out to deceive those people outside the Kingdom into riding across the breadth of the earth and coming against the people God loves. But fire comes down from heaven and devours the attackers instead.

When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore. And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them. Rev 20:7-9

Note: "Gog and magog" are indeed on the earth at this time (but outside the Kingdom: the outer darkness). Note also that God did not pursue and destroy them; God protected His people from their attack.


3 - The second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead) occurs now at the end of the thousand years (see Rev 20:5, the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended). At this time all the dead (in Hades, the world of the dead) are resurrected. Some are resurrected to LIFE (and so are invited into the Kingdom) and some are resurrected to judgment and the second death (the lake of fire)... based upon their deeds as recorded in their individual scrolls. That is the Judgment (for they are before the Judgment seat of God), which occurs at the end of the thousand years.


Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire


4 - Then God will be all in all.






Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Last edited by tam on Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #43

Post by PinSeeker »

[Replying to post 42 by tam]

Yes, you've clearly enunciated all those egregious scripture misunderstandings several times before. All that needs to be said in response are two things:

1. Annihilationism is not communicated in any way by God via His Holy Spirit, in His Word.

2. Pre-millennialism -- in both it's forms, historic and dispensational, is very much in error. Your points 2 and 3 are essentially correct, but the understanding of the Millennium to be a future, literal, 1000-year period is very much incorrect.

I can say with iron-clad conviction that I received my understanding from my Lord, too. Either one of us is wrong, or both of us is wrong, but we cannot both be right.

Grace and peace to you, Tam.

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Post #44

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 38 by PinSeeker]


Checkpoint wrote:

The Second Death is not a continuation of existence, but rather, the final end of those it hurts.
Pinseeker responded:

I agree not, then, with you (or anyone else with the same position on this matter), but with Scripture, which was always the case.
You agree with Scripture, and that was always the case?

What you agree with is your interpretation and understanding of Scripture.

Pinseeker wrote about 2 Peter 3

Yes, this is a picture of the Judgment to come. This is precisely why Peter, in reference to Old Testament passages, injects the image of fire, and burning up, as God Himself is a consuming fire and will lay everything bare -- everything will be exposed, as the ESV well translates the Greek there (verse 10). Nothing -- NOTHING -- will be literally destroyed, or wiped from existence. Annihilation is not taught in this passage, but rather the final transformation of the present cosmos, including the earth, to its completely redeemed and renewed state -- all creation is returned to the "very good" state it was in before Adam's fall in Genesis 3 -- which God affirms in Revelation 21:5. After the Judgment, He says, from His throne, “Behold, I am making all things new.�
Before Adam's fall there was no sin and no sinners anywhere; they simply did not exist.

That has to be, and will be, when the old order disappears to reveal and display the new order in all its glory, Paradise.

The old will be removed, and be forgotten, and only the new will remain.
Hebrews 12:

26 At that time His voice shook the earth, but now He has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.�

27 The words “once more� indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.

Isaiah 65:

17 "See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.
Blessings to all.

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Post #45

Post by myth-one.com »


Checkpoint wrote:Before Adam's fall there was no sin and no sinners anywhere; they simply did not exist.
Angels sinned.

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Post #46

Post by myth-one.com »


PinSeeker wrote:Annihilationism is not communicated in any way by God via His Holy Spirit, in His Word.
Here is how His only begotten son put it:
John 3:16 wrote:For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Do you give any credit to Jesus' communication of the two possible things which can befall every man or woman?

Jesus taught that every human will either perish or have everlasting life.

Where did He get that stuff from?

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Post #47

Post by PinSeeker »

Checkpoint wrote: You agree with Scripture, and that was always the case? What you agree with is your interpretation and understanding of Scripture.
Put it however you want, my friend; it is what it is.
Checkpoint wrote: Before Adam's fall there was no sin and no sinners anywhere; they simply did not exist. That has to be, and will be, when the old order disappears to reveal and display the new order in all its glory, Paradise. The old will be removed, and be forgotten, and only the new will remain.
Hebrews 12:

26 At that time His voice shook the earth, but now He has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.�

27 The words “once more� indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.

Isaiah 65:

17 "See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.
I wholeheartedly agree with every single bit of this.

Hebrews 12:26-27 is yet another picture of the Judgment, when the tares will be separated from the wheat as it were. All evil and sin -- and those who are not repentant and believing in the Lord and serving Him will be removed from the earth. Removed, not wiped from existence. There is no implication that the wicked are wiped from existence.

Isaiah 65 speaks of the New Heavens and New Earth. It will not be new in the sense that it didn't exist at all before that point, but that it will be made brand new -- without sin and with only gladness and peace. Yes, it's hard to imagine, but the former things shall not be remembered or come to mind. I'm not sure how I won't remember my unbelieving loved ones -- if they remain unbelieving -- but God says that will be the case, so I believe it. But again, there is absolutely no implication that the wicked are wiped from existence.

In summary, all this is regarding the heavens and the earth, which, post-Judgment, will be one -- Paradise found/restored. Having said that, though, neither cessation of existence of the wicked -- nor that there is not a place where the wicked will be sent -- is implied here, either explicitly or implicitly.
Checkpoint wrote: Blessings to all.
Much the same to you. Grace and peace to you, my friend.

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Post #48

Post by PinSeeker »

myth-one.com wrote: Angels sinned.
Well, Satan did, sure. That he "fell..." That's exactly what that means.

But other than he? It's possible, but nowhere does God tell us that any other angel sinned, so I'm saying no.
myth-one.com wrote: Jesus taught that every human will either perish or have everlasting life.
Absolutely nowhere have I refuted this, or even failed to affirm it.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

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Post #49

Post by myth-one.com »


myth-one.com wrote:Angels sinned.
PinSeeker wrote:Well, Satan did, sure. That he "fell..." That's exactly what that means.

But other than he? It's possible, but nowhere does God tell us that any other angel sinned, so I'm saying no.
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Jude 1:6)
myth-one.com wrote:Jesus taught that every human will either perish or have everlasting life.
PinSeeker wrote:Absolutely nowhere have I refuted this, or even failed to affirm it.
You constantly refute it, claiming that every human ever born will continue to exist eternally.

Jesus states that believers shall have everlasting life.

And non-believers perish:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
You claim that every one has an everlasting existence.

You are assigning the reward of the saved to all mankind.

I'll have to side with Jesus and the scriptures on this one.

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Post #50

Post by PinSeeker »

myth-one.com wrote: Jesus states that believers shall have everlasting life. And non-believers perish...
Yes, but as I've said, many, many times now, you misunderstand what is truely meant in John 3:16 (and elsewhere in the Bible) by 'perish,' 'perishing,' 'death,' etc. Cessation of existence... annihilation... is not a synonym for the aforementioned words as used in the Bible in any way, shape, or form.
myth-one.com wrote: You are assigning the reward of the saved to all mankind.
Absolutely not. Perish the thought. :) See what I did there? <chuckles>
myth-one.com wrote: I'll have to side with Jesus and the scriptures on this one.
Hey, I'm with ya, man. Totally. But to really do that, you're gonna have to understand Him rightly. And right now, that's just not happening...

Grace and peace to you.

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