Free will & destiny

[Menotu]

Can both Free Will and Destiny exist at the same time?

If so, how?

If not, why not?

Within Christianity, which exists?
Some say everyone has free will, but looking back at the biblical stories, that doesn't seem to be the case.
Someone had to fall to temptation and eat the apple; someone had to betray Jesus.
Where those people acting on free will, or were they forced to play their part in the grand plan?
If they had free will, surely God knew what they would do and had to plan accordingly?
Or does his plan supersede all human understanding?
And if that's the case, how are we to understand anything about him?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 38 by Adstar]

So you believed God overroad Phaorahs free will and made him do something that he would be punished for? (This question would usually be responded to with a "yes" or "no" answer)

Who would, in that case be responsible for Phariahs being punished? The person that caused the ill or the person that was a victim of another's superior power over him forcing him to commit the deed?

This makes me think of child victims of Satanic Ritual. Apparently the sadistic adults will take a knife, put it in the child's hand and with the adult hand over that childs hand force them to stab and kill a beloved pet or even another child. This unthinkable evil wrecks the child's mind as he or she thinks they committed the act, but of course they did not, the powerful person over which they had not control is the real murderer.

How is this any different from a God forcing someone to do something that is punishable?

..after He resisted God twice then God chose to take control over his mind to use pharaoh as a vessel of wrath.

Mind control is one of the most heinous crimes one can commit. To deny someone their freedom of thought and self determination is a truly a base, evil, despicable way of achieving ones aims and it is blasphemous to suggest God needs to resort to such methods.

Could it be that instead of casting such aspersions on the Creator your interpretation of scripture, rather than Gods character could be at fault?

Deuteronomy 32:4 NIV

He is the Rock, his works are perfect and all his ways are just.
A faithful God who does no wrong upright and just is he.

JW

[Menotu]

[Replying to post 6 by 2timothy316]

There is no Bible prophecy that says that someone had to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad.

And yet, someone had to. There's no passages about computers or cars either, but they exist.

Yes but not from the stand point of God. This was the will of Satan.

Maybe, but God had to know it was coming and didn't stop it, so it has to be understood that either he was OK with it, didn't care or didn't know.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 41 by JehovahsWitness]

Mind control is one of the most heinous crimes one can commit. To deny someone their freedom of thought and self determination is a truly a base, evil, despicable way of achieving ones aims and it is blasphemous to suggest God needs to resort to such methods.

That's what makes indoctrination of infants and children with religious beliefs the equivalent of abuse and just as much a criminal practice as that attributed to God.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 6 by 2timothy316]

There is no Bible prophecy that says that someone had to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad.

And yet, someone had to.

Why did someone have to? Scriptures please as to why. Not your opinion please.

Yes but not from the stand point of God. This was the will of Satan.

Maybe, but God had to know it was coming and didn't stop it, so it has to be understood that either he was OK with it, didn't care or didn't know.

When did the wicked act exist? Before A&E existed or after? Why is it that God 'had' to know? Do you think that time is like the movie Back to the Future? Did you know the idea of back to the future is complete bull? Do you know what time even is? Do you understand the physics of thermodynamics and it's relation to time?

[2timothy316]

God on the other hand exists outside of the universe and it's time line and can see all out times from His existence.. So to God all universe history has been observed and thus He foreknew our entire lives at the very start of creation and thus can know our eternal destiny..

Question: All of the wicked people that have ever lived and all of the wicked things ever done, before the existance of these people and the universe itself where did all of these wicked people's action exist?

Well it is very hard to explain this using Human language.. All i can use is an analogy.. But think of it this way.. All the things that where ever going to happen in the universe had in a way already happened at the moment of creation of this universe, from Gods Point of View outside the Universe... So the universe and it's history is like a picture.. that can be viewed by God in it's totality at one time.. But for us inside this picture we go from one pixel to the next.. Day by day and each new pixel is revealed to us one at a time..

So you're saying that the wicked acts of a person existed in God's thoughts before they existed in the person. Blades of grass are not my concern, but the acts of wickedness mankind act out are. When does God know these acts are going to happen? is it before or after a person comes into existence?

I am saying that God foreknew the evil that every individual would do before they where born, before they came into this universe existence..

Not sure how much clearer i can be about my belief..

That means that your god is evil because before they existed their evil acts only existed in the mind of your god. Then your god placed that evil on the person and they had no choice but to follow the evil your god set for them. So sad....good thing that is not true according to the Bible.

My God, Jehovah can't do evil things. The Bible says that wisdom from above is pure and reasonable. But evil things are from earthly, animalistic and demonic sources.

James 3:14-18 says, "But if you have bitter jealousy and contentiousness in your hearts, do not be bragging and lying against the truth. This is not the wisdom that comes down from above; it is earthly, animalistic, demonic. For wherever there are jealousy and contentiousness, there will also be disorder and every vile thing. But the wisdom from above is first of all pure, then peaceable, reasonable, ready to obey, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial, not hypocritical. Moreover, the fruit of righteousness is sown in peaceful conditions for those who are making peace."

[Adstar]

In my experience from being in religious based forums and chat rooms for near on 20 years i have never seen a Calvinist let go of the Calvinism.. And i don't expect you to either.. Such is life..

Well, that's not surprising. I gotcha; nolo contendere... Suit yourself.

But again, regardless of any label, right is right. God's Word is what it is, and some can't bring themselves to fully embrace it. I hope that will not always be the case for you (or others here).

Grace and peace to you, Adstar.

I have indeed embraced the Word of God and in doing so i completely reject the faulty Calvinist interpretation of them..

[Adstar]

God on the other hand exists outside of the universe and it's time line and can see all out times from His existence.. So to God all universe history has been observed and thus He foreknew our entire lives at the very start of creation and thus can know our eternal destiny..

Question: All of the wicked people that have ever lived and all of the wicked things ever done, before the existance of these people and the universe itself where did all of these wicked people's action exist?

Well it is very hard to explain this using Human language.. All i can use is an analogy.. But think of it this way.. All the things that where ever going to happen in the universe had in a way already happened at the moment of creation of this universe, from Gods Point of View outside the Universe... So the universe and it's history is like a picture.. that can be viewed by God in it's totality at one time.. But for us inside this picture we go from one pixel to the next.. Day by day and each new pixel is revealed to us one at a time..

So you're saying that the wicked acts of a person existed in God's thoughts before they existed in the person. Blades of grass are not my concern, but the acts of wickedness mankind act out are. When does God know these acts are going to happen? is it before or after a person comes into existence?

I am saying that God foreknew the evil that every individual would do before they where born, before they came into this universe existence..

Not sure how much clearer i can be about my belief..

That means that your god is evil because before they existed their evil acts only existed in the mind of your god.

No.. A volcanologist can know beforehand that a volcano is about to erupt but foreknowing that does not then place the responsibility of that eruption on the volcanologist..

Then your god placed that evil on the person and they had no choice but to follow the evil your god set for them.

No.. foreknowing what someone else will do does not mean you are placing anything upon them to do or forcing them to do it.. You have Calvinist interpretation of the phenomenon.. They teach God forces others to take the path they do in life.. Not me and not the Bible..

So sad....good thing that is not true according to the Bible.

Of course Calvinism is not true according to the Bible..

My God, Jehovah can't do evil things. The Bible says that wisdom from above is pure and reasonable. But evil things are from earthly, animalistic and demonic sources.

Yes God cannot do evil things.. But your interpretation of what i have revealed is a wonky Calvinist one.. You do not understand what it is you are rejecting..

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 41 by JehovahsWitness]

Mind control is one of the most heinous crimes one can commit. To deny someone their freedom of thought and self determination is a truly a base, evil, despicable way of achieving ones aims and it is blasphemous to suggest God needs to resort to such methods.

That's what makes indoctrination of infants and children with religious beliefs the equivalent of abuse and just as much a criminal practice as that attributed to God.

I agree. Thankfully that's nothing we Jehovahs Witnesses practice, indeed mercifully most religious people I know would never stoop to such criminality when educating their children and passing on their moral and spiritual values.

JW

[2timothy316]

No.. A volcanologist can know beforehand that a volcano is about to erupt but foreknowing that does not then place the responsibility of that eruption on the volcanologist..

This doesn't fit what you're presenting. You're saying that before a person even even born their evil deeds only exists in the mind of your god. In your analogy the volcano already exist, so yes of course an eruption can be predicted. Yet what you're presenting is that the volcanologist knows when a volcano is going to erupt before the even volcano exists.

Then your god placed that evil on the person and they had no choice but to follow the evil your god set for them.

No.. foreknowing what someone else will do does not mean you are placing anything upon them to do or forcing them to do it.. You have Calvinist interpretation of the phenomenon.. They teach God forces others to take the path they do in life.. Not me and not the Bible..

Actually, you have the Calvinist interpretation. My belief is that God does NOT know what evil things a person is going to do before they exist. There is no way a person can decide something before they have a mind to make a decision. In my view since there is no person existing yet there is nothing for God to foresee. Yet you said and I quote you in post 31, "I am saying that God foreknew the evil that every individual would do before they where born, before they came into this universe existence.."

According to your own statement, the evil act of the person existed in your god's mind before it existed in the person's mind. That makes your god the source of the evil act and not the person because the evil act existed before the person, that is Calvinism.

My thoughts on time are that the future doesn't exist unless Jehovah God wills it. Since nothing evil can come from Jehovah that means no evil exists in the future unless a person already exist with the intend are carrying out the an evil deed. Now Jehovah can foresee an evil deed before it happens if the person exists but He cannot see the evil deed of a person before they exist, because there is no human brain to think of the deed. It is my understanding that time is not linear. There is only this moment in time and once it's gone, it's gone forever. We can move forward and backward in space but time has only one direction and that is forward. We can only move at the pace of the Arrow of time. We can't move faster than it so viewing the future of a person that doesn't exist now is not possible. We can guess as humans what another human is going to do, but Jehovah knows the person's heart, DNA, everything to know what their future holds. But if a person doesn't exist there is nothing to foreknow because time is not playing like some movie on a DVD. There is no way to fast forward to watch some future event because the future doesn't exist yet.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 6 by 2timothy316]

There is no Bible prophecy that says that someone had to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad.

And yet, someone had to. ..

Why do you say "someone had to"? Disobedience was not a given, if nobody ate from the tree the hjman family would have been a lot better of.