How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #921

Post by otseng »

Diogenes wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:46 pm I have not studied this much, but I found this summary of scholarly belief:

"Archaeological evidence suggests that the Israelites primarily emerged natively from Canaan. A number of scholars do not believe that the exodus has any historical basis at all, while only those on the fundamentalist fringes accept the entire biblical account “unless [it] can be absolutely disproved”. The current consensus among archaeologists is that, if an Israelite exodus from Egypt occurred, it must have happened instead in the Nineteenth Dynasty of Egypt (in the 13th century BC), given the first appearance of a distinctive Israelite culture in the archaeological record. The potential connection of the Hyksos to the exodus is no longer a central focus of scholarly study of the Hyksos."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos
Yes, there is a significant portion who believe the Exodus occurred in the 19th Dynasty (the late date). Of course, I've been arguing for the 18th Dynasty (early date). There is no consensus among scholars and historians of the early date or the late date and each side has their own arguments. It's a huge area of discussion and we can dive deeper into that later.
TRANSPONDER wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:54 am Exactly. That's Not what the Exodus suggests which is that all the Hebrews left and there were (effectively) none left to be slaves in Egypt. Hyksos (or Levantine) slaves in Egypt (as per your posts) after your proposed date of the Exodus means that can't be supporting evidence for your theory.
Again, the Israelites were a subset of the Hyksos. Even if all the Israelites left Egypt, there were non-Israelites who would've remained in Egypt.
No. I'm saying that like the Edomites, Ammonites, Moabites, Babylonians and Assyrians (as much Semites as Hebrews), there is no evidence to show that they formed a substantial part of the Hyksos (whom I would suppose were drawn from the many Canaanite city - states) and remained behind after the Hyklsos Rule was ended so as to provide the "Hebrew" slaves that left Egypt in the Exodus.
I do not claim to know what percentage of the Hyksos were Hebrews. Though I would guess the Hyksos population was over a million during the time of the 2nd Intermediate Period.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #922

Post by otseng »

Image
Ancient Egyptian painted wooden model of three men making bricks, 12th Dynasty, 1991–1778 BCE, Beni Hasan tomb 275, British Museum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bricks_wi ... M1.agr.jpg

While they were slaves, one thing they did was make bricks with straw (mudbricks).

Exod 1:14
And they made their lives bitter with hard bondage, in mortar, and in brick, and in all manner of service in the field: all their service, wherein they made them serve, [was] with rigor.

Exod 5:7 Ye shall no more give the people straw to make brick, as heretofore: let them go and gather straw for themselves.

Brick making was commonly a task for slaves.

"Brick making appears to have been a labor specialization that was normative for slaves in ancient Egypt."
https://www.thetorah.com/article/what-k ... o-in-egypt

Straw was an essential element in making bricks in Egypt.
Many clay products require the addition of other materials to add strength and durability. In the case of bricks in Old Testament Egypt – river clay is usually composed of very fine particles and so would dry slowly – adding straw would "open up" the clay, allowing it to dry more readily in the sun. In addition to aiding in drying, the linear nature of straw adds stability to the clay brick in much the same way that rebar or wire mesh reinforce modern day concrete. Bricks made without straw would break and crumble easily. Adobe bricks used around the world are generally only sun dried but grasses, straw and other materials are added to the clay for the same basic reasons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bricks_without_straw
Mudbricks were made from Nile alluvium, a conglomerate of clay and sand. The proportion of clay within that alluvium determines much of the properties of the mud. When the content of clay is proportionally high, bricks can be made without the use of straw. When the content of clay is low, as is more typical, straw was added to prevent a brick from falling apart as it dried.
https://www.baslibrary.org/biblical-arc ... iew/46/2/6

Straw was collected after harvest time and stored in order to be used throughout the year.
Collecting the straw for the bricks is especially hard work. The straw is usually taken from the fields after the wheat has been harvested and crushed by the farmers. In ancient times, the Egyptians left the stems of the wheat in the fields. This minimized the labor needed for mudbrick production.

In Egypt (as well as the Levant), straw was available only after harvest time. This might create a serious hindrance in the construction process, as the bricks could be produced only during the dry season. Since construction with bricks was a year-round activity, chaff was collected and stored to ensure a continuous supply.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmst ... ology.html

So, straw was a commodity that most often provided by the Pharaoh and not something easily acquired year round. This problem is alluded to in Ex 5:11.

Exod 5:10-11
10 And the taskmasters of the people went out, and their officers, and they spoke to the people, saying, Thus saith Pharaoh, I will not give you straw.
11 Go ye, get you straw where ye can find it: yet not aught of your work shall be diminished.

Image
https://www.thetorah.com/article/what-k ... o-in-egypt
Levantine Asiatics making bricks (Illustration from N. D. G. Davies, Paintings from the Tomb of Rekh-Mi-Rē
https://www.thetorah.com/article/what-k ... o-in-egypt

Picture of a brick mold found at Lahun:

Image
https://patternsofevidence.com/2021/02/ ... mudbricks/

The word "adobe" can be traced back to Egyptian mudbricks:
The modern word adobe traces its origin through Spanish, Arabic and back to the ancient Egyptian word for mudbrick, djebet. For the straw that Pharaoh denies to the Israelites, the Biblical text uses the word teben, but the word actually means, somewhat more broadly, “chaff."
https://www.academia.edu/38207809/With_ ... ade_Bricks

The idiom, make bricks without straw, originated with this Biblical story, which means "to do or attempt to do something without the basic necessary tools or materials one needs."

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #923

Post by TRANSPONDER »

otseng wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:24 pm
Diogenes wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:46 pm I have not studied this much, but I found this summary of scholarly belief:

"Archaeological evidence suggests that the Israelites primarily emerged natively from Canaan. A number of scholars do not believe that the exodus has any historical basis at all, while only those on the fundamentalist fringes accept the entire biblical account “unless [it] can be absolutely disproved”. The current consensus among archaeologists is that, if an Israelite exodus from Egypt occurred, it must have happened instead in the Nineteenth Dynasty of Egypt (in the 13th century BC), given the first appearance of a distinctive Israelite culture in the archaeological record. The potential connection of the Hyksos to the exodus is no longer a central focus of scholarly study of the Hyksos."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos
Yes, there is a significant portion who believe the Exodus occurred in the 19th Dynasty (the late date). Of course, I've been arguing for the 18th Dynasty (early date). There is no consensus among scholars and historians of the early date or the late date and each side has their own arguments. It's a huge area of discussion and we can dive deeper into that later.
TRANSPONDER wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:54 am Exactly. That's Not what the Exodus suggests which is that all the Hebrews left and there were (effectively) none left to be slaves in Egypt. Hyksos (or Levantine) slaves in Egypt (as per your posts) after your proposed date of the Exodus means that can't be supporting evidence for your theory.
Again, the Israelites were a subset of the Hyksos. Even if all the Israelites left Egypt, there were non-Israelites who would've remained in Egypt.
No. I'm saying that like the Edomites, Ammonites, Moabites, Babylonians and Assyrians (as much Semites as Hebrews), there is no evidence to show that they formed a substantial part of the Hyksos (whom I would suppose were drawn from the many Canaanite city - states) and remained behind after the Hyklsos Rule was ended so as to provide the "Hebrew" slaves that left Egypt in the Exodus.
I do not claim to know what percentage of the Hyksos were Hebrews. Though I would guess the Hyksos population was over a million during the time of the 2nd Intermediate Period.

Scholars, you say. I say that Bible -apologists have been making all manner of claims for when and under which dynasty the Exodus happened and what seems to be a growing view is that the Biblical account never happened at all under any dynasty.

There is no real evidence that the Israelites were a subset of the Hyksos or or were living in the Egyptian delta under Hyksos rule at all. You have produced absolutely no evidence to show that to be the case.

Have a nice day b ;)

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #924

Post by TRANSPONDER »

As to your post above that's very nice information on brick making and harvesting (with possible straw -production - I suppose it has its' uses) in Egypt. None of that is any support for the Exodus. If Exodus has accounts of them forced to haul stone blocks or make pots without...say, glazing, you could show models and pictures of Egyptians doing that (as they always did) and claim that supports the Bible. You have nothing.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #925

Post by otseng »

Image
Statue of Hatshepsut wearing the Nemes headdress of the Pharaoh
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... ut2012.jpg

In post post 807, I gave a date of around 1446 BC that the Israelites left Egypt.

The Bible says Moses was 80 years old when they spoke to Pharaoh.

Exod 7:7 (ESV)
Now Moses was eighty years old, and Aaron eighty-three years old, when they spoke to Pharaoh.

So then Moses would've born around 1526 BC. This would put Moses around the reign of Thutmose I.
Thutmose I's reign is generally dated to 1506–1493 BC, but a minority of scholars—who think that astrological observations used to calculate the timeline of ancient Egyptian records, and thus the reign of Thutmose I, were taken from the city of Memphis rather than from Thebes—would date his reign to 1526–1513 BC
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thutmose_I
The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt gives his reign lasting from 1504-1492 BC, while Peter Clayton indicates 1524-1518 and Monarchs of the Nile as 1503-1491.
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/tuthmosis1.htm

Hatshepsut was "the daughter and only child of Thutmose I and his primary wife, Ahmose."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatshepsut

The Bible says the daughter of Pharaoh was the one who rescued Moses from the river. This most likely would've been Hatshepsut since she was the only daughter of the reigning Pharaoh at that time.

Exod 2:5
Now the daughter of Pharaoh came down to bathe at the river, while her young women walked beside the river. She saw the basket among the reeds and sent her servant woman, and she took it.
It is reasonable to assume that Hatshepsut married Thutmosis II shortly before he assumed the throne in 1517 BC. “Hatchepsut can have been no more than 15 years old when she married her brother and became consort” (Tyldesley 1996:96). Accordingly, Hatshepsut was born ca. 1533/2 (1517 + 15 = 1532). If Hatshepsut was born in 1533/2, she was six or seven years old when Moses was born ca. 1526 BC.
https://biblearchaeology.org/research/e ... hatshepsut

One thing interesting about Hatshepsut is she would become one of the most powerful women in all of Egyptian history and ultimately would assume the position of Pharaoh.

And Moses was raised by Hatshepsut as her adopted son.

Exod 2:10
When the child grew up, she brought him to Pharaoh's daughter, and he became her son. She named him Moses, "Because," she said, "I drew him out of the water."

Acts 7:21-22
21 and when he was exposed, Pharaoh's daughter adopted him and brought him up as her own son.
22 And Moses was instructed in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and he was mighty in his words and deeds.

Under Hatshepsut, Moses would've received the best education in all of Egypt, which would be quite useful in order to author the Torah.

Eventually, Hatshepsut would reach the status of Pharaoh and ruled from 1498 - 1483 BC.
https://www.virtual-egyptian-museum.org ... Alpha.html

She would be co-ruler along with Thutmose III, who ruled from 1504 - 1450 BC.

"Thutmose III ruled from 1479 B.C.E. to 1425 B.C.E. according to the Low Chronology of Ancient Egypt. This has been the dominant theory in academic circles since the 1960s,[7] yet in some academic circles the dates 1504 B.C.E. to 1450 B.C.E. are still preferred."
https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Thutmose_III

Moses had tried to initially help his fellow Hebrews, but failed.

Exod 2:13-14
13 When he went out the next day, behold, two Hebrews were struggling together. And he said to the man in the wrong, "Why do you strike your companion?"
14 He answered, "Who made you a prince and a judge over us? Do you mean to kill me as you killed the Egyptian?" Then Moses was afraid, and thought, "Surely the thing is known."

Moses then fled Egypt to escape from Thutmose III.

Exod 2:15 (ESV)
When Pharaoh heard of it, he sought to kill Moses. But Moses fled from Pharaoh and stayed in the land of Midian.

Thutmose III was one of the longest reigning Pharaohs of Egypt.
According to later king lists, Pepi II ruled for 94 years around 2200 BCE. However, contemporary documents only go up to the seventh decade of his reign, and it is not certain that he really ruled for that long. The longest fully documented reign is the 67 years of Rameses II, who came to the throne in 1279 BCE and built more temples than any other pharaoh. The next place is a tie between Thutmose III (1479 BCE) and Psamtik I (664 BCE), both of whom ruled for 54 years.
https://www.howitworksdaily.com/who-was ... -of-egypt/

Since Moses was in Midian for 40 years to escape from the Pharaoh, the only two possible kings with such a long reign would either be Thutmose III or Rameses II. This would correlate with either the late date or the early date of the exodus.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #926

Post by TRANSPONDER »

So Hatshepsut found Moses in the bulrushes. But how odd that she knew he was a Hebrew, eh? As he would have been raised as an Egyptian and even if he's have been appalled at the (claimed) enslavement of Hebrews, he wouldn't have considered himself one. Dammit, he wouldn't even have been circumcised. But all of a sudden he stops being an Egyptian in a pleated linen robe and wig and become a Israelite patriarch with a beard and shepherd's dress including a staff.

I have said all along that your chronology works well enough, but I just don't buy the story. Let me guess the rest. Moses left Egypt with the Israelites under Hatshepsut's son or his son. And by the time they were conquering Canaan, Egypt's control of the Canaanite stated had collapsed under Akhenaten and the archives are full of letters from the Governors Of Jerusalem and other places appealing for help against their enemies. Guess who?

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #927

Post by jd01 »

William wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 6:05 pm
jd01 wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 4:08 pm
otseng wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:35 am For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?
While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.
This is a very broad question. In looking just at the four gospels there are plenty of errors in the texts, yet through plain reading and looking at the time, place and person who wrote each work it is possible to become very confident in the material. You don't need "inspired" or "inerrancy" to have confidence.
That one might not have need of, does not negate that confidence cannot be gained through such device, with others.
Why not? What level of confidence is needed?
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #928

Post by William »

[Replying to jd01 in post #927]
That one might not have need of, does not negate that confidence cannot be gained through such device, with others.
Why not?
Confidence is subjective.

What level of confidence is needed?
That can only be answered subjectively.

Some have no need for such stuff in order to gain some levels of confidence in their interpretation of their experience of this Universe.
Others do have need in such stuff, which is what my comment was addressing.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #929

Post by otseng »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 11:20 amBut how odd that she knew he was a Hebrew, eh?
That she knew he was a Hebrew was not odd. Circumcision was a sign of the Abrahamic covenant.

Gen 17:9-12 (ESV)
9 And God said to Abraham, "As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.
12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring,

He was at least 3 months old, so well past being 8 days old.

Exod 2:2-3 (ESV)
2 The woman conceived and bore a son, and when she saw that he was a fine child, she hid him three months.
3 When she could hide him no longer, she took for him a basket made of bulrushes and daubed it with bitumen and pitch. She put the child in it and placed it among the reeds by the river bank.
Let me guess the rest. Moses left Egypt with the Israelites under Hatshepsut's son or his son. And by the time they were conquering Canaan, Egypt's control of the Canaanite stated had collapsed under Akhenaten and the archives are full of letters from the Governors Of Jerusalem and other places appealing for help against their enemies.
Incorrect guess. I'll post the next steps later.
TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 1:41 am As to your post above that's very nice information on brick making and harvesting (with possible straw -production - I suppose it has its' uses) in Egypt. None of that is any support for the Exodus. If Exodus has accounts of them forced to haul stone blocks or make pots without...say, glazing, you could show models and pictures of Egyptians doing that (as they always did) and claim that supports the Bible.
I'm not so sure stone blocks would've made much sense. It was much easier to produce mud bricks than find and haul stone blocks.

Also, the last pyramid built was by Ahmose I.

"In ancient Egypt, pyramid construction appeared to wane after the reign of Ahmose ... The last king's pyramid — that of Ahmose I, at Abydos"
https://www.livescience.com/why-ancient ... g-pyramids

"This building program culminated in the construction of the last pyramid built by native Egyptian rulers."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmose_I

Also, the pyramid of Ahmose I was not built of stones, but the remains is now just sand and rubble.

Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pyra ... ,_1998.png

"The Pyramid of Ahmose was built not as a tomb, but a cenotaph for pharaoh Ahmose I at the necropolis of Abydos, Egypt.[1] It was the only royal pyramid built in this area. Today only a pile of rubble remains, reaching a height of about 10 m. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_of_Ahmose
You have nothing.
Again, claiming I have nothing is not a valid argument, you'll need to produce counter-evidence instead.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #930

Post by otseng »

Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thutmose_III

Thutmose III had a co-regency with Hatshepsut for a period of time and was considered a military genius. He greatly expanded the borders of Egypt and brought the area of Canaan as subjects.
Widely considered a military genius by historians, he was an active expansionist ruler who is sometimes called Egypt's greatest conqueror or "the Napoleon of Egypt."[14] He is recorded to have captured 350 cities during his rule and conquered much of the Near East from the Euphrates to Nubia during 17 known military campaigns. He was the first Pharaoh to cross the Euphrates, doing so during his campaign against Mitanni. His campaign records were transcribed onto the walls of the temple of Amun at Karnak, and are now transcribed into Urkunden IV. He is consistently regarded as one of the greatest of Egypt's warrior pharaohs, who transformed Egypt into an international superpower by creating an empire that stretched from southern Syria through to Canaan and Nubia.[15]
https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Thutmose_III

"Thutmose III began the first and most decisive of the great conqueror’s campaigns in the region of Canaan and Syria establishing Egyptian dominance over the region."
https://biblicalhistoricalcontext.com/i ... of-canaan/

The Egyptians had a policy of keeping the Canaanites weak after conquering them.
But, what stands out most in the archaeological record from the time period of Egyptian domination isn’t so much what was there as wasn’t– from the time of Thutmose III until the end of Egyptian rule, almost all towns in Canaan had no city wall.13 Excluding Hazor, Megiddo, and (possibly) Gezer – the very largest Canaanite cities – the only towns with walls constructed in the Late Bronze age are Ashdod, Tel Abu Hawam, and Tel Beit Misrim.14 The rest stood vulnerable and unprotected – just how Pharaoh wanted them.
https://biblicalhistoricalcontext.com/i ... of-canaan/

"from the time of Thutmose III until the end of Egyptian rule, almost all towns in Canaan had no city wall."
https://biblicalhistoricalcontext.com/i ... of-canaan/

"We’re going to come back to the topic of Late Bronze age deportation in a future post and get into the detail there, but for now we just need to understand that depopulation happened, and it left Canaan all the more weakened and all the more in the shadow of Egypt."
https://biblicalhistoricalcontext.com/i ... of-canaan/

So, most of the area of Canaan was made weak and vulnerable during this time. For any invader, it would've been the perfect time to attack the area of Canaan.

During the reign of Thutmose III, Hatshepsut died for unknown reasons and following her death, Thutmose III ruled Egypt alone for 33 years. There was also an attempt to erase the memory of Hatshepsut. It is theorized it was Thutmose III who ordered this.

"No contemporary source, including that stela, mentions how she died. Her mummy was not in her prepared tomb, and many of the signs of her existence had been erased or written over, so the cause of death was a matter of speculation."
https://www.thoughtco.com/how-did-hatsh ... ie-3529280

"Until recently, a general theory has been that after the death of her husband Thutmose II, Hatshepsut 'usurped' the throne from Thutmose III. Although Thutmose III was a co-regent during this time, early historians have speculated that Thutmose III never forgave his step-mother for denying him access to the throne for the first two decades of his reign."
https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Thutmose_III
Whatever the case, upon her death, Thutmose III ascended to the position of pharaoh. As mentioned, he now presided over an Egypt that had prospered greatly under Hatshepsut’s rule. However, about two decades into his reign, for reasons unclear today, he began ordering his men to remove mentions of Hatshepsut as pharaoh. Her name and image were destroyed, scraped form engravings and her statues toppled- no easy task considering the numerous buildings and other works built under her rule, often featuring her in some way in them.
https://www.todayifoundout.com/index.ph ... ake-beard/
Before his own death, Thutmose III moved to erase Hatshepsut from the historical record by defacing her monuments and removing her name from the list of kings.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/cult ... hatshepsut

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