How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

[otseng]

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:

How can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?

The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.

For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Thread Milestones

• Case study of Hezekiah
• Start discussing global flood / Flood Model summary
• Recap arguments of authority of the Bible
• Start discussing Tower of Babel / Tower of Babel summary
• Start discussing archaeology / Philosophy of science / Origin of alphabet / End of discussion on archaeology
• Start discussing cosmology / Concluding cosmology
• Start discussing Shroud of Turin / Summary top TS imaging theories / Created DefendingChristianity.com and TS subforums / Shroud of Turin summary
• Start discussing Bible and resurrection
• Start discussing the Messiahship of Jesus / Messiahship of Jesus wrap up
• Start discussing Old Testament ethics
• Summary argument of atheism and morality / God basis for objective morality
• Start discussing genocide / Genocide summary argument
• Start discussing slavery / Slavery summary argument
• Start discussing homosexuality / Homosexuality summary argument
• Old Testament ethics summary argument
• Start discussing philosophy / Summary argument on philosophy
• Start discussing creation of universe / Summary argument universe was created

[otseng]

I demonstrated that clearly by showing that opting for'evidence'supporting Amenhotep II as the Pharaoh of Exodus totally debunked the 'evidence' you fished out to support the Hyksos as the Israelites of the Exodus,

Really not sure what you are claiming. But, as for the Exodus event, I have not yet gotten to that point. I'm still presenting evidence of the Israelites entering Egypt. Do you have any valid arguments against the evidence I've produced so far?

[TRANSPONDER]

I demonstrated that clearly by showing that opting for'evidence'supporting Amenhotep II as the Pharaoh of Exodus totally debunked the 'evidence' you fished out to support the Hyksos as the Israelites of the Exodus,

Really not sure what you are claiming. But, as for the Exodus event, I have not yet gotten to that point. I'm still presenting evidence of the Israelites entering Egypt. Do you have any valid arguments against the evidence I've produced so far?

You haven't? I could have sworn that you'd fingered Amenhotep II as the Pharaoh of the Exodus. I trust that you aren't trying to use the Hyksos as evidence of' Israelites entering Egypt'because they are nothing like Israelites and they were kicked out before the New kingdom.

Now, while one cannot prove it 100% it Looks like Israel made itself known about the 11th c when it appeared in the rather devastated Canaan and was first mentioned by Merneptah (one of the Ramessid kings. What this means is that what evidence we have makes the Hyksos too early to be Israelites in Egypt and the appearance of Israel is too late for Amenhotep II, never mind Hebrews being enslaved in Egypt, which is not probable based on all evidence about Egypt at the time.

In short, I don't see anything yet presented to make your case and only opting for Amenhotep II as your preferred Exodus - Pharaoh .

I can see it coming though - the Hyksos were the Israelites and although they were kicked out, some stayed a prospered until they were made slaves and put to work making inferior bricks (which sounds like the overseers making sure the workers sabotaged the product) and so on with the excuses as to why Amenhotep didn't drown along with his charioteer in the Red sea.

That would be ignoring all evidence and reason and relying on no evidence but making stuff up just to prop up the Bible narrative. I'm not going after you, nor was I in the earlier post, but I am pointing up why Biblefaith (and why else?) puts you in the position of not going with the way the evidence points, but ignoring it and making really thin material (e.g the 4 room house argument) stretch to try to prop up the Exodus -narrative.

Over to you, but just clearing some undergrowth and marking out the contested area, before you get started. Because I don't see you've presented anything much as yet.

[otseng]

I demonstrated that clearly by showing that opting for'evidence'supporting Amenhotep II as the Pharaoh of Exodus totally debunked the 'evidence' you fished out to support the Hyksos as the Israelites of the Exodus,

Really not sure what you are claiming. But, as for the Exodus event, I have not yet gotten to that point. I'm still presenting evidence of the Israelites entering Egypt. Do you have any valid arguments against the evidence I've produced so far?

You haven't? I could have sworn that you'd fingered Amenhotep II as the Pharaoh of the Exodus. I trust that you aren't trying to use the Hyksos as evidence of' Israelites entering Egypt'because they are nothing like Israelites and they were kicked out before the New kingdom.

I haven't made any claims about Amenhotep II yet, but I'll get to that later. I only mentioned it because of presenting the dating.

But, yes, the claim right now is I believe the Hyksos is evidence of Canaanites (which would include the Israelites) entering Goshen at the same time as the Bible narrative says they would. Do you believe this claim is false?

In short, I don't see anything yet presented to make your case and only opting for Amenhotep II as your preferred Exodus - Pharaoh .

Of course, I haven't even gotten to that yet. I'm still presenting the evidence for entering Egypt.

[TRANSPONDER]

Ok. I see that you referenced Amenhotep II and Tuthmosis III and you mentioned the Israelites were in Egypt 400+ years which would last from the Hyksos period to those kings, whichever one you like. But the point that I already made was that the Hyksos were NOT Israelites, they were Canaanites (which is not the same thing), the Hyksos were not at all like the story of the enslaved Israelites even if one credits the Exodus story at all, and they were kicked out of the Delta before we get to either of those kings you referenced.

How are you going to be able to make your argument work? Pointing to supposed disagreements about the Dating of Egyptian kings won't help you. It may trundle the goal back and forth but it won't actually widen the goalposts.

Cuer... I can see good ol' science denial lurking in the wings. I hope you won't bring him on stage.

[jd01]

For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?
While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

This is a very broad question. In looking just at the four gospels there are plenty of errors in the texts, yet through plain reading and looking at the time, place and person who wrote each work it is possible to become very confident in the material. You don't need "inspired" or "inerrancy" to have confidence.

[William]

For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?
While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

This is a very broad question. In looking just at the four gospels there are plenty of errors in the texts, yet through plain reading and looking at the time, place and person who wrote each work it is possible to become very confident in the material. You don't need "inspired" or "inerrancy" to have confidence.

That one might not have need of, does not negate that confidence cannot be gained through such device, with others.

[otseng]

But the point that I already made was that the Hyksos were NOT Israelites, they were Canaanites (which is not the same thing), the Hyksos were not at all like the story of the enslaved Israelites even if one credits the Exodus story at all, and they were kicked out of the Delta before we get to either of those kings you referenced.

Israelites would be a subset of Canaanites. All I've argued for so far is Canaanites were in Goshen. As for the 12 tribes of Israelites in Goshen, I will present evidence in the next post. Later, I will present evidence of the Hebrews being enslaved.

[otseng]

Evidence linking Joseph and Israel with the Hyksos...



There is a palace in Avaris (Tell El-Dab'a) that has 12 pillars at the entrance and 12 primary tombs at the back. And one of the tombs was in the shape of a pyramid with a statue of a Semitic ruler wearing a multi-colored coat. The remains are missing from the tomb.
https://patternsofevidence.com/2018/09/ ... rom-egypt/

In 1997, David Rohl brought to global attention an archaeological find of profound importance in a field near modern Faqus, Egypt: Standing out among the uncovered ruins of Middle-Bronze Age Avaris, Tell el-Daba, Area F, are the remains of a palace of a high-ranking official, excavated by Manfred Bietak with the Austrian Institute for Egyptology. Although the palace has an Egyptian style, it is understood by all that its chief occupant was a high-ranking Semitic official, on account of the graves in the cemetery of its palace garden. The honor given this Asiatic (another term for Semite) by the Egyptian crown was so great, he was given a pyramid tomb with a massive statue to commemorate his memory. It has been determined that the statue bore a striped, multi-colored coat, yellow-painted skin and flame-red hair, and held in its hand a throw-stick -- all quintessential marks of Semite ethnicity.

https://www.academia.edu/35532146/The_S ... Re-edited_





The palace contains a cylinder seal impression that correlates with the 12 tribes of Israel.

When viewed through a biblical lens, the bulla clearly depicts early symbols of the Israelite tribes, evoking themes found in the blessings of Jacob to his sons in Genesis chapter 49, with motifs that would have been well understood among ancient Egyptians of the late 12th and early 13th Dynasties. The arrangement of the symbols indicates a strong, Joseph-centered bias. Accordingly, it seems likely that the owner of the seal, most likely the high official that owned the estate, may have been none other than the figure behind the biblical traditions of Joseph, or a chief among his heirs.

https://www.academia.edu/35532146/The_S ... Re-edited_

Primary source of the excavation from Manfred Bietak:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/43552807

[TRANSPONDER]

When viewed through the Biblical lens indeed. But it means nothing that I don't buy this wall painting and a cylinder - seal as showing that the Hyksos were Israelites, I have to give good reasons to doubt.

Firstly, the cylinder -seal. You would have to do more than make or recycle a claim that it represents the 12 tribes of israel. We have a man, a boat, a lion as a repeated pattern. How do you make that the 12 tribes?

Next this figure. Taking the best view. This figure is a Hyksos official wearing a coat given by the Hyksos king as a symbol of favour or authority. Or perhaps as a garment of conferred rulership. Depends how you want to read Joseph being given the coat as a symbol of authority over the other 'tribes' by his father. It isn't signifying a position as an official by a Pharaoh, even if Joseph held that position. The figure didn't look very kinglike either, more of a skivvy running off on some errand. But however.

I suppose it doesn't matter whether you read it as actually being Joseph or some Hyksos king or official holding the multicoloured coat rank. Covering all bases, suppose this dream coat was a symbol of either Egyptian or Hyksos authority, why couldn't this - just as we see from the four -room house that pops up from middle kingdom upper (southern)Egypt to 8th century Palestine - just be something that the story writer knew about and anachronistically handed to Joseph? Which would make sense if it was a known sign of authority like a crown or sceptre, but turned into a sign of primacy amongst the Hebrew tribes by Joseph's father. The old story of a Biblical spin on a (possible) real thing? Bottom line, even real things in the Bible don't make the Biblical narrative true if there are reasons to doubt it.

And I already went over the reasons to doubt that the Hyksos were anything to do with the Hebrews. From what I have seen in the past and after your post the Hyksos were Canaanite traders, immigrant workers, just people looking for a better life (since Those intermediate Pharaohs never got that wall built) and didn't seem to represent the various city - states of Canaan but a Canaanite people unifiedi in their acquisition of power in the nome of Goshen as a valid Egyptian dynasty (which even the hostile king lists recognised it was) and eventual rulers of Egypt - which for a time, they were.

Add to this that they were kicked out of the delta some time before those kings Amenhotep and Tuthmosis or Thutmose, and even if you had Israelites amongst the Hyksos, the 'Exodus'i s done before those kings appear and we are back to Canaanite kings being kicked out of the Delta by Ahmose I and not Hebrews being led out by Moses.. And there is still the borrowing of Sargon in the Bulrushes and the anachronistic mention of Philistia that suggests a Babylonian date for Exodus (1)

Bottom line - the evidence is against the Biblical version of the Exodus even if one credits the wall painting as anything to do with a many - coloured coat. You still have the contrast between a Canaanite ruling dynasty and enslaved Hebrews making bricks.

cue I have my Theist hat on. The Hyksos rulers may have been ejected but the Hebrews (for some reasons - were kept on as slaves and the Exodus happened under later Pharaohs, right? But where is the evidence for that? The Hyksos evidence won't help. Nor would claims that it was there but sunk in the mud (Delta archaeology is trickier than Pharonic archaeology) or, of course :'It is there and we hope it will turn up eventually'

I did see one effort to make the 'storm'Papyrus (or stele) relate to the 'plagues' but it doesn't. It is Ahmose referring to the very mundane depredations of the Hyksos and nothing to do with Biblical plagues.

(1) same idea coming to various people, perhaps, but I never saw the Moses/Ahmose connection or Babylonian Exodus mentioned before (though the vague attempt to relate the Hyksos to the Hebrews was an old apologetic) and I always considered the suggestion I made as very speculative, but I saw that same thing cropping up a few times last night as I surfed .

[TRANSPONDER]

Wiki has a few comments on the finds at Avaris (Tel el- Dab'a) :

"The tomb styles and methods used to bury the dead in Tell el-Dab’a were Canaanite.[2][4] The tombs consist of vaulted mud-brick chambers.[4] They reflect the belief in the afterlife of the inhabitants of Tell el-Dab’a, similar to that of the Egyptians. Grave goods were often buried with the bodies.[2] Servant and donkey burials are recognized as remarkable burial practices of Tell el-Dab’a.[2] The servant and donkey burials were practiced between 1680 and 1660 BCE. They were most popular during the period of Asiatic immigration at the beginning of the Hyksos reign.[2]

The servants were not buried in the same manner as the tomb owners: the servants were buried at a different orientation in the tomb in order to show their position in the hierarchy of Tell el-Dab’a.[2] They were buried across the tomb entrance, facing the door.[2] This is interpreted as the servants waiting for the instructions of the tomb masters, which would be a component of the ideal life in the afterlife.[2] Three servant burials have been found at Tell el-Dab’a. The servants appear to have been buried at the same time as the tomb owners during a servant sacrifice.[2]

The donkey burials took place throughout the history of Tell el Dab’a. The donkeys were generally found in pairs in front of the tombs at the site.[2] The donkeys may have been sacrificed when the tomb owner died as they were both buried at the same time.[2] The donkeys emphasize the society’s belief in the afterlife: donkeys were closely associated with expeditions and could thus be connected with the journey between life and death.[2]

Temples
Excavations at Tell el-Dab’a have uncovered temples that date to the Hyksos period. The temples exhibit Egyptian and Canaanite styles.[2] By convention, the entrances of the temples are in the north wall and the temples are orientated NNW-SSE.[2] Items such as bronze daggers, ax heads, and jugs have been found at these complexes.[4]

The most noteworthy temple is Temple I.[2] It is in the Egyptian style and dates to between 1680 and 1660 BCE.[2] It contains three sanctuaries and in its courtyard, there is evidence of an altar upon which sacrifices may have been made.[2] The outside walls were made of mud-brick that was whitewashed. Traces of blue paint have been found on the walls.[2]

Artistic influence
Minoan frescos
Main article: Minoan frescoes from Tell el-Daba
In 1987, thousands of fragments of Minoan wall paintings were discovered in the ancient gardens that adjoin the palace complex of Tell el-Dab’a, on the site of a fortress of the early New Kingdom.[5] The fragments show techniques, subjects, and styles that are characteristic of Minoan frescos.[5] The frescos were applied as buon fresco, a defining aspect of Minoan works.[6] They include scenes of maze-like patterns, bulls and bull-leapers, the flying gallop, griffins, and leopard and lion hunts, images associated with the Minoan artistic culture. The Minoan wall paintings from Tell el-Dab’a therefore show that the early [7]18th dynasty rulers were open to works and themes from the eastern Mediterranean.[8] The Hyksos and Minoan societies were in contact, potentially through itinerant artists who transferred Minoan technology to Tell el-Dab’a. The population of Tell el-Dab’a may have also included Aegean families, resulting in direct connections between Aegean and Egyptian art.[3]

The bull-leaping scenes depicted on the fresco fragments are considered to be indistinguishable from those found in Minoan palaces.[8] The theme of bull leaping is identified in particular with Knossos, Crete.[5] The fresco was painted in the Minoan bull-leaping fresco style: a dark-skinned individual with dark, wavy hair wearing Minoan-style clothing, namely the kilt, boots, and armbands, is depicted performing a flip over a bull’s back."

I indulge myself on the Minoan connection, as it is fascinating to think of a wealthy Minoan trader with his own house in Avaris, or even the Embassy of the Keftiu. to the Hyksos dynasty. But the point is, those details left out of any 'Biblical archaeology make the culture and customs of the Hyksos not at all like the Biblical Hebrews.