Is it entirely unnecessary and insulting to inform people...

[William]

Is it entirely unnecessary and insulting to inform people...That they are evil in the sight of GOD and bound for hell?

As a human being, how is such theology acceptable and a good and reasonable thing to be stating or even implying of others, on a debate forum or even in day to day life?

Are people right to be able to take a stand against such theology and call it out for being dated, dark, based upon information from dark ages, based in ignorance and evil of intent?

What gives individuals the right to say such things about others?

Is it a form of abuse?

Should others have to take that kind of abuse about their persons without protesting it?

[marco]

2. Man, of his own will and accord, rebelled and thus fell from the state of grace in which God had placed him.............................
This is amazing grace, amazing love. The word 'amazing' really seems inadequate to describe what really is incomprehensible grace, and an incomprehensible love.

"Man" did not fall. In the tale one man, Adam, fell. There are demonstrably millions with more character than Neanderthal Adam. They need no redemption. The theory is an absurdity wrapped in nonsense.

You are right that incomprehensible describes the "love" that lets God have his son crucified just because an imperfect toy of his malfunctioned. Spite is a better fit.

Men killed His Son. We all did. But He did all this for us despite that. Because he SO LOVED the world (us).

I can assure you I am not old enough to have killed Jesus. We would need to have vast justification for this absurdity but there is none except the fiction about Adam, the first man.

Constantly repeating "God so loved..." does not make it true. The simple truth is that hatred, anger, savagery have a son killed, especially if you've got all the power to prevent it. From this theology we read hate into love; bitterness into sacrifice; and we even see death as life. What a work of art is man!

[William]

[Replying to post 58 by For_The_Kingdom]

The truth is the truth, and will remain true regardless of ones personal feelings/attitudes towards it.

See this is what I am talking about. People conflating their beliefs with The Truth and then regarding that as a licences to insult others with.

You don't think that what you believe is the truth? How is this different from your preaching your truth and insinuating (or stronger) that those who do not accept it are stupid, deluded or worse?

Show me (and the reader) my beliefs, then show me where I claim those beliefs are truth, then show me where I insinuate (or stronger) that those who do not accept it are stupid, deluded or worse.

In the mean time the focus of this thread OP is on the insult of informing people that they are evil in the sight of GOD and that GOD is going to send them to eternal torment of burning fire.

So, when I say 'show me and the reader' - if you think you can, make a thread about what is offensive about these alleged beliefs I have and show me and the reader exactly how I 'insinuate (or stronger) that those who do not accept my beliefs are stupid, deluded or worse.'

Otherwise withdraw the comment as misrepresenting me and ask for forgiveness.

[William]

[Replying to post 71 by marco]

From this theology we read hate into love; bitterness into sacrifice; and we even see death as life. What a work of art is man!

Maybe it is just some form of poetic licence?

[PinSeeker]

"Man" did not fall. In the tale one man, Adam, fell. There are demonstrably millions with more character than Neanderthal Adam. They need no redemption. The theory is an absurdity wrapped in nonsense.

Yeah, we've talked about this before. Yes, Adam fell, and because he is the federal Head of the human race, all men, in Adam, fell. All are in need of redemption. Not all will acknowledge their need of it.

You are right that incomprehensible describes the "love" that lets God have his son crucified just because an imperfect toy of his malfunctioned. Spite is a better fit.

"Malfunctioned." No, disobeyed, and rebelled, did Adam, because of his failing love, his lack thereof, and his selfishness. God doesn't do "spite." Spite is sin, and thus something only humans are capable of. Since, you know, Adam's sin.

I can assure you I am not old enough to have killed Jesus.

All sin is retroactive and proactive. That's the way heredity works. When you were born is irrelevant. You inherited the disease (and guilt), just like I did, just like we all did. and just like all who come after us will. Until Jesus finally makes things right again, of course, which He will, in the fullness of time.

Constantly repeating "God so loved..." does not make it true.

Agreed. God saying it once (which He did) does, however.

The simple truth is that hatred, anger, savagery have a son killed...

Agreed. Our hatred, anger, savagery... and selfishness, pride, and every other sin we could name did it. Guilty as charged. We all are.

...especially if you've got all the power to prevent it.

That's just the thing. None of us did/do. So God had to rectify it, by satisfying His own justice on our behalf. And He did this by laying down His own life for us. Because... well, you don't like me repeating things, so I won't, but... you know.

From this theology we read hate into love; bitterness into sacrifice; and we even see death as life.

In Bizarro world, sure.

What a work of art is man!

Indeed. Which has a double-edged meaning, actually. Kind of like a bumper sticker I once saw that said, "Read the Bible; it'll scare the hell out of ya." God did indeed create man, and declared him, along with all the rest of His creation, "very good." But man spoiled that work of art horribly, creating a "work of art" of his own. Now it's up to God to make it all right again. And He will. Because of His love. And faithfulness. And glory.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 61 by For_The_Kingdom]

What person loves you so much that he will let his Son suffer for what you've done (John 3:16). And what person loves you enough that he will allow himself to suffer for what you've done (John 15:13).

If you don't see the love there, then I don't know what to tell you.

What sort of love requires a father to have his son tortured and killed before he can offer people forgiveness for their failings? The whole premise is devoid of love. True, unconditional love would not involve such barbarity.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 68 by PinSeeker]

1. God created man, for His own glory, and because of His infinite love.

And in that infinite love he left them to be seduced by one of his own creations, clearly evil, without any form of intervention. God was unquestionably demonstrating depraved indifference, not infinite love. The latter requires you to protect your children at all cost.
The myth of the fall is a fatally flawed attempt at explaining the bad things in this world while whitewashing God and absolving him of any responsibility.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 68 by PinSeeker]

1. God created man, for His own glory, and because of His infinite love.

And in that infinite love he left them to be seduced by one of his own creations, clearly evil, without any form of intervention. God was unquestionably demonstrating depraved indifference, not infinite love. The latter requires you to protect your children at all cost.
The myth of the fall is a fatally flawed attempt at explaining the bad things in this world while whitewashing God and absolving him of any responsibility.

Au Contraire. Like any good father, He told Adam what he was allowed to do and what he was not allowed to do. Adam disobeyed. God had told him what the consequences would be, and He followed through on that. Discipline is love. And then God is the one that had to pay the ultimate price in Adam's place. What wondrous love indeed.

And Satan was not created evil. He fell, too, but before the creation of the world. The story of Lucifer’s fall is described in two key Old Testament chapters -- Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 77 by PinSeeker]

Au Contraire. Like any good father, He told Adam what he was allowed to do and what he was not allowed to do. Adam disobeyed. God had told him what the consequences would be, and He followed through on that. Discipline is love.

OK, so Adam had to ultimately die as he was warned. How is all the rest that God inflicted on the hapless couple a natural consequence? Does disobedience warrant the introduction of pain, suffering, disease and death? Is that discipline or sheer vindictiveness? Then to make it apply to all of humanity that followed is utterly despicable. There is no discipline in any of that and not a shred of love.

And then God is the one that had to pay the ultimate price in Adam's place. What wondrous love indeed.

God paid nothing at all. God in his infinite love expected humans to murder his own son in order to pay some imaginary price. That's not love. That's barbarism. That aside, no price was paid since the body of Jesus was only allegedly dead for a few hours. Big deal. Wondrous nonsense indeed.

And Satan was not created evil. He fell, too, but before the creation of the world. The story of Lucifer’s fall is described in two key Old Testament chapters -- Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14.

The Bible is clear that a serpent, created by God, seduced an unwitting couple who had no knowledge of good and evil. Satan was not involved. While this was happening, God was curiously absent. While discipline seems to be of concern, responsible parenting showing due care appears not to be. God is clearly guilty of depraved indifference, particularly given the heinous nature of his imposed consequences. I really don't understand how people can defend such atrocious behaviour.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 77 by PinSeeker]

And then God is the one that had to pay the ultimate price in Adam's place. What wondrous love indeed.

Curious. I must have missed God's funeral.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 61 by For_The_Kingdom]

What person loves you so much that he will let his Son suffer for what you've done (John 3:16). And what person loves you enough that he will allow himself to suffer for what you've done (John 15:13).

If you don't see the love there, then I don't know what to tell you.

What sort of love requires a father to have his son tortured and killed before he can offer people forgiveness for their failings? The whole premise is devoid of love. True, unconditional love would not involve such barbarity.

Why is it people like FtK are just incapable of thinking about it another way? Let's say I've done something bad...how is it love if my next door neighbour sends his son to jail in my place? Or goes himself?