Good reason

[nobspeople]

In a different thread (listed below), when discussing, in part, if the bible is true, TRANSPONDER said " It is a well known argument that asserting what is in the Bible is true because it is in the Bible is a fallacy. A Lawyer would know that a witness statement is not going to be accepted as true just because he or she has said it. Nor of course rejected without good reason."

The above bolded section caused me to think (not claiming this is TRANSPNDER's assertion): is there good reason to think the bible isn't true?

For discussion: Is there good reason (define what is 'good reason' to you) to think the bible is or is not true*?

*TRUE here being used as 'legitimate, real word of God which was written by men, inspired by God' - this would assume everything written in it is true and agreed upon by God - in other words, nothing written is personal opinion of the writer.



Reference viewtopic.php?f=8&t=38540&start=10

[1213]

Sure. A multitude of reasons to believe it's not true:

- Many books written by many people with differing perspectives not consistent with each other....

That is funny, because usually atheists complain that there is only few sources. And if there would be only one writer, they would say, it can't be true, because just one writer, which would be quite reasonable, because it is long history and no human would have been alive all that time to write about thousands of years.

[nobspeople]

Sure. A multitude of reasons to believe it's not true:

- Many books written by many people with differing perspectives not consistent with each other....

That is funny, because usually atheists complain that there is only few sources. And if there would be only one writer, they would say, it can't be true, because just one writer, which would be quite reasonable, because it is long history and no human would have been alive all that time to write about thousands of years.

What's really funny, is that you fail to accept the FACT that, according to your brothers and sisters in christ, the bible is GOD BREATHED and GOD INSPIRED (to be fair, though, that's the bible making that claim so it is circular reasoning at best).
And yet, as many have pointed out, there are inconsistencies in the bible. Most of which christians explain away as it suits their chosen lifestyle agenda, or ignore entirely.
So you can laugh at atheists and detractors all you want. But know, the real joke, is on those who believe the biblical tripe that passes as 'god inspired' or 'breathed' or whatever other 'god' none sense one wishes to ascribe to it.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #39]

Science cannot disprove a miracle. Noah's flood and many of the other miraculous accounts are essentially beyond the scope of scientific examination. It is therefore false to claim they have been disproved.

Others beat me to a response, but obviously if no geologic or other evidence exists for the supposed global flood (and it doesn't) then either it never happened, or it is just a story from an old book (and ancient flood stories are not unique to the bible). But if explanations are allowed in the "god can do anything" category, then of course anything imaginable is on the table with no method for verification. Just make up something, claim an omnipotent god did it, and when the story falls apart upon scrutiny just claim this same god cleaned up (as brunumb aptly put it) to fool us modern day investigators.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #39]

Science cannot disprove a miracle. Noah's flood and many of the other miraculous accounts are essentially beyond the scope of scientific examination. It is therefore false to claim they have been disproved.

Others beat me to a response, but obviously if no geologic or other evidence exists for the supposed global flood (and it doesn't) then either it never happened, or it is just a story from an old book...

... or it was a miracle.

Feel free to state that an omnipotent God couldn't perform a miracle without leaving a geologic trace if your sense of logic, scientific studies of the psychology of an omipotent God and knowledge of basic English lexicon permits.

JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to


GOD, MIRACLES and ... THE MIRACLES OF JESUS CHRIST

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #39]

Science cannot disprove a miracle. Noah's flood and many of the other miraculous accounts are essentially beyond the scope of scientific examination. It is therefore false to claim they have been disproved.

Others beat me to a response, but obviously if no geologic or other evidence exists for the supposed global flood (and it doesn't) then either it never happened, or it is just a story from an old book...

... or it was a miracle.

Feel free to state that an omnipotent God couldn't perform a miracle without leaving a geologic trace if your sense of logic, scientific studies of the psychology of an omipotent God and knowledge of basic English lexicon permits.

JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to

MIRACLES , JESUS' MIRACLES, and MESSIANIC PROPHECY

We (non- believers) don't need to. That is not the argument. All we are logically obliged to do is show that the claims of evidence for a flood do not actually validate the claim of the Biblical flood.

Then the burden of proof falls firmly on the Bible beleiver.

Feel free to prove the Flood, any time you like.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #55]

... or it was a miracle.

Feel free to state that an omnipotent God couldn't perform a miracle without leaving a geologic trace if your sense of logic, scientific studies of the psychology of an omipotent God and knowledge of basic English lexicon permits.

Sure ... IF an omnipotent god being existed then by definition it could cause a global flood to murder all the humans and air breathing animals it supposedly created, then wipe out any geologic trace of such an event. And you could make up virtually any other story of any kind and explain it this same way. Nothing is off the table with these kinds of unrealistic rules, so it is pointless to get into whether or not some event is scientifically sound, or verifiable by geologic or other physical evidence, etc.

Miracles and omnipotent gods do away with any of that, so fictional accounts of anything, no matter how outlandish and improbable, can be claimed without challenge. No miracles have ever been demonstrated to have occurred, and no omnipotent gods (or supernatural gods of any kind) have ever been demonstrated to exist. It would be a waste of money and resources to carry out scientific studies of the psychology of an omnipotent god, or of claimed miracles, when neither have any evidentiary support.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #55]

... or it was a miracle.

Feel free to state that an omnipotent God couldn't perform a miracle without leaving a geologic trace if your sense of logic, scientific studies of the psychology of an omipotent God and knowledge of basic English lexicon permits.

Sure ... IF an omnipotent god being existed then by definition it could cause a global flood to murder all the humans and air breathing animals it supposedly created, then wipe out any geologic trace of such an event.

Then I rest my case. One cannot claim any miracle has been disproved by science neither can one claim the lack of geological evidence constitutes proof positive a miracle did not happen; these logical inevitabilities cripple any claim one has "disproved" the scientifically unfalsifiable.





JW

[JehovahsWitness]

No miracles have ever been demonstrated to have occurred, and no omnipotent gods (or supernatural gods of any kind) have ever been demonstrated to exist.

That is a somewhat grandiose statement to say the least: You cannot possibly prove the above to be true without knowing everything that has ever happened in every possible universe; making yourself the very thing you claim does not exist.



The most someone can say is they are not aware of any such demonstration. Or, since I presume you have or are aware of the contents of the bible, that you do not believe any recorded reports of demonstrations of divine encounters or miraculous events.

To learn more please go to other posts related to


GOD, MIRACLES and ... THE MIRACLES OF JESUS CHRIST

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #58]

Then I rest my case. One cannot claim any miracle has been disproved by science neither can one claim the lack of geological evidence constitutes proof positive a miracle did not happen; these logical inevitabilities cripple any claim one has "disproved" the scientifically unfalsifiable.

My statement was that no miracles have ever been demonstrated to have actually occurred, not that any miracle has been disproved by science since that would not be possible without first having a bona fide miracle to investigate. Is Noah's flood presented in the bible as some sort of miracle? Or is it presented as an actual event with natural causes?

In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.

For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits.

This sure sounds like a description of a natural event to me, where the water came from springs and rain. Since you don't describe your interpretation of the biblical story I can only assume you take it literally and are implying that the biblical god performed a miracle to create all the water in the first place (since this much water could not possibly come from natural sources on the planet ... that is easy enough to show), and that this same god performed another miracle to hide all traces of the geological evidence that would have resulted from such an event. Guesswork at best.

Again, I never claimed that science has disproved any miracle, only that no miracle has ever been demonstrated to have occurred. These are very different things.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #59]

That is a somewhat grandiose statement to say the least: You cannot possibly prove the above to be true without knowing everything that has ever happened in every possible universe; making yourself the very thing you claim does not exist.

Well, I am assuming happenings on planet Earth since we've yet to find life anywhere else, or identified other universes (or verified any miracles, or the existence of any gods). But you can prove me wrong by giving one example of a scientifically verified (or verified by some valid method that isn't heresay or imagination) miracle, or any demonstration that any of the thousands of gods that humans have invented exist now, or ever did exist (in any universe).

The most someone can say is they are not aware of any such demonstration. Or, since I presume you have or are aware of the contents of the bible, that you do not believe any recorded reports of demonstrations of divine encounters or miraculous events.

Exactly. I'm not aware of any such demonstrations (can you reference any?), and I don't believe that the supernatural exists in any form or format which would preclude any belief in divine encounters or miraculous events. But I'd change my mind in an instant if anything of the sort could be demonstrated to be real. So far, I don't know of any examples of where this has been accomplished.