Did Moses write the Torah?

[otseng]

There are two main views regarding the authorship of the Torah (Pentateuch). The traditional view holds that Moses wrote it during the Exodus from Egypt, around the 15th or 13th century BC, depending on the early or late date of the Exodus. The scholarly view proposes that the Torah was compiled during the post-exilic period in Persia, between approximately 539 and 333 BC.

Debate topic: Did Moses write the Torah?

[Difflugia]

Additionally, I'd like to point out that even though some of his ideas are outdated, reading Wellhausen adds extra perspective to much of Friedman's work. Friedman engages with Wellhausen to argue for the Exodus being based on early material and therefore much more likely historical. Wellhausen, however, makes a number of absolutely damning observations about the text that suggest that the Tabernacle of the Exodus is a fictional stand-in for the Jerusalem Temple. Many of these arguments aren't even mentioned by Friedman, let alone adequately addressed.

I find Joel Baden to be a much more even-handed scholar than Friedman, but also find his writing more difficult to read. Read Friedman's Who Wrote the Bible first, because it's entertaining to read and provides an immense framework of context for the discussion. Then read Baden's The Composition of the Pentateuch to bring you up-to-date with scholarship that is more widely accepted, then read Wellhausen's Prolegomena for historical context.

[POI]

You know, I'm in exactly the opposite camp. I don't think Moses was real, but I don't think it matters. No part of the Bible was composed in any form by Moses. There are too many anachronistic features of the text spread across the different authors for anything beyond vague legends to predate the ninth century or so. Whether Moses was real is an interesting question, but not a particularly important one. I think Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch is similar to Davidic authorship of Psalms or Solomon being the Qoheleth of Ecclesiastes: the tradition is that those individuals were involved, but everyone not already steeped in the tradition knows that they weren't.

Well, I created a new thread this morning asking if Moses existed? Let's see if it gains any traction

[otseng]

OK, good, we have agreement.

Unless you want to monologue, you're going to have to help me identify some areas for disagreement. If you just want a conversation that isn't a debate, I'm fine with that, too, but let me know that's what we're doing.

I'm only pointing out one area of agreement - that JEPR had a single source. I doubt we'll have much more in agreement beyond that. Where I'm heading is that the single source (O) of JEPR would be the historical Moses. I assume you won't accept that position.

Just to be pedantic, we don't necessarily have the one common source, but we have at least one and so far, that's between J and E. There's definitely material that wasn't common between all four claimed sources, too. A concrete example is the "Holiness Code" in Leviticus and Numbers which is unique to P.

I'm not ruling out other possible sources as well, esp the parts where there are no parallel accounts. But for the most part, there appears to be a single common source for the multitude of doublets and triplets. I'm also concentrating on JEPR and not D for now.

As far as I've read, I haven't seen anybody really going into this. So, it's new ground for exploration. I have my own theory and I'll slowly build my case for it.

If that's what you want to do, that's fine, but that's not a debate per se. There's a reason that forensic debates are built around yes/no questions. I'm not going to insist on that much formality, but I'm also not going to be debating against a question you either haven't defined or stacked to the point that I'm arguing against mere possibility. I mean, it's possible that Santa Claus wrote the Torah.

The purpose of this thread is "Did Moses write the Torah?" And where I'm heading with my arguments is the affirmative that he did write it. So far, my argument is that I accept the main premises of DH. We've also covered there is evidence there was a common source for JEPR. Next I have to show the common source was the historical Moses. I'm sure there'll be plenty for skeptics to counter in my future arguments.

If you're using "traditional view" narrowly, then we've already agreed that the first view is likely false. If you're using it broadly, then idenifying anything anachronistic from the point of view of the 12th century falsifies it. You've already said that you're changing the question and I'm fine with that, but if you'd like me to participate, you need to tell us what the question is.

No, I'm not changing the question. My theory is that the common source (O) is the historical Moses.

[otseng]

Because we first need to establish if a Moses really existed before we can then logically ask what Moses did or did not directly contribute.

Do you have evidence J, E, P, D, or R actually existed? If no, then it's special pleading that I must first demonstrate Moses actually existed.

"The special pleading fallacy occurs when an individual applies rules or standards to others while exempting themselves or a particular group from those same criteria. It is a form of double standards, where a claim or assertion is altered or interpreted in a manner that favors one side without justifiable reasoning."
https://rephrasely.com/usage/special-pleading-fallacy

This storyline would then be thrown in with all the other claim(s) from the Bible, where we would still have to also believe the 'supernatural' parts (as well) -- to boot.

Nobody is saying you have to believe all the claims in the Torah in order to answer the question who wrote it.

No. I think the evidence points to multiple authors, and, as you noted, the scholarly consensus is against Mosaic authorship.

I'm just curious as to why Otseng skipped this response?

What is there to respond to? He only stated his position with no justification or evidence presented. What exactly is the evidence Moses did not write the Torah?

[POI]

In essence, I feel this topic is a 'nothing burger.' At best, Moses existed and authored some of this book, which is also filled with many "supernatural" claims, and at worst, Moses did not exist at all. Which would then mean this portion of the Bible was written by other(s). Does a proven Moses authorship add any more veracity to the claims within it, verses if we were to discover other(s) wrote it? What's your play here exactly, regarding the Torah?

Maybe I was not clear enough in our prior exchange? If I wasn't, I apologize for not being more transparent. Near the end of our conversation, regarding the "Exodus" topic, 'Moses' was mentioned. I'm thinking this is at least, in part, why you created this topic? However, it seems to me, that in your case, to ask if Moses wrote the Torah is placing the cart before the horse. A more pointed question, for which we must first address, is whether or not a 'Moses' even existed? This is why I have now created this topic here (viewtopic.php?t=42535).

Because we first need to establish if a Moses really existed before we can then logically ask what Moses did or did not directly contribute.

Do you have evidence J, E, P, D, or R actually existed? If no, then it's special pleading that I must first demonstrate Moses actually existed.

"The special pleading fallacy occurs when an individual applies rules or standards to others while exempting themselves or a particular group from those same criteria. It is a form of double standards, where a claim or assertion is altered or interpreted in a manner that favors one side without justifiable reasoning."
https://rephrasely.com/usage/special-pleading-fallacy

Thanks for the complete misdiagnoses. My core belief(s) about certain topics do not hinge upon whether or not certain expressed figures from ancient antiquity actually existed. But yours do.

I've explained why Moses must exist, in your world view. A matter of fact, I explained it as early as post #3, and beyond. In your case, he is also said to be an integral part of the storyline itself, not just the claimed partial or complete author of the Pentateuch. I also explained that if you can prove he existed, I would very easily just reconcile that he may have written parts of the Torah. In which case, it would still matter very little, from my perspective regardless. For which I also already explained why. See posts 3, 6, 9, 17, and 19 for details. Case/point, according to Wiki, a source you like to use a lot BTW, scholarship suggests 'the Exodus' didn't happen. So, who really cares who wrote it, aside from if we know Moses didn't write it because he never actually existed? Whoever wrote it may very well have been suspect. And to add insult to injury, what about all the "supernatural" stuff placed in the Torah as well? And I rather enjoyed your attempt at muddying the waters, regarding what I mean by "supernatural." I had a good chuckle there...

(side note) - I'm thinking about dedicating a topic about it, as I think many do not believe the Bible merely because they do not accept claims regarding the "supernatural".?.?.? But I digress... These 'supernatural' claims aren't doing your believed upon collection of books any favors, in regard to added 'veracity'.

But in your specific case, if Moses didn't exist at all, then your entire Christian position crumbles, as 'Moses' is believed to be a very important figure -- which so desperately needs to be a real character from antiquity. So, is he a real character? I created a new thread to explore....

Since you instead want to rubberstamp and dismiss me accordingly, readers see what is actually going on here. You are committing the red herring fallacy to divert the attention away from my observation(s).

What is there to respond to? He only stated his position with no justification or evidence presented. What exactly is the evidence Moses did not write the Torah?

What is there to respond to? This --> "No. I think the evidence points to multiple authors, and, as you noted, the scholarly consensus is against Mosaic authorship."

***********************

He asserted a position, which is 'no.' He then stated his justification for his given position. I think if I would have submitted the exact same response, I have a hutch you would have replied accordingly Maybe I'm mistaken?

[otseng]

A more pointed question, for which we must first address, is whether or not a 'Moses' even existed? This is why I have now created this topic here (viewtopic.php?t=42535).

It is an important topic, but I only debate in one topic at a time. After this one is done, I can then debate about the existence of Moses.

I've explained why Moses must exist, in your world view. A matter of fact, I explained it as early as post #3, and beyond.

Sure, but I'm basing my belief on evidence and rational arguments. If there are no alternative explanations that are more reasonable, then it's entirely rational for me to hold to my position, in spite of my biases.

So, who really cares who wrote it, aside from if we know Moses didn't write it because he never actually existed?

Who cares about who wrote the Torah? You should be asking all the myriad of scholars debating the documentary hypothesis. Why do they even care? Why do some devote years, decades of their lives studying this topic? I would even guess in Biblical studies in the scholarly world, this is one of the top subjects. It is also widely taught in seminaries. So, this topic is very important.

Since you instead want to rubberstamp and dismiss me accordingly, readers see what is actually going on here. You are committing the red herring fallacy to divert the attention away from my observation(s).

This topic is about who wrote the Torah, not did Moses exist or about supernatural claims. So, who's the one diverting?

What is there to respond to? This --> "No. I think the evidence points to multiple authors, and, as you noted, the scholarly consensus is against Mosaic authorship."

He asserted a position, which is 'no.' He then stated his justification for his given position. I think if I would have submitted the exact same response, I have a hutch you would have replied accordingly Maybe I'm mistaken?

Are you saying just because scholars don't believe Moses wrote it? This would be the appeal to authority fallacy. What I'm asking for is the evidence for their position.

[otseng]

I was thinking it'd be nice to have a way to view it in UBA. I found a site that has XML data that I can possibly convert and use it in UBA.

https://www.tanach.us/Tanach.xml

Created a JEPD Bible for UBA. Instructions at:
viewtopic.php?p=1173672#p1173672

[POI]

Who cares about who wrote the Torah? You should be asking all the myriad of scholars debating the documentary hypothesis. Why do they even care? Why do some devote years, decades of their lives studying this topic? I would even guess in Biblical studies in the scholarly world, this is one of the top subjects. It is also widely taught in seminaries. So, this topic is very important.

Repeated...

** Does a proven Moses authorship add any more veracity to the claims within it, verses if we were to discover other(s) wrote it? What's your play here exactly, regarding the Torah?

** (paraphrased) -- In your world view, "Moses" existing, and also "Moses" writing most of the Torah, appears to be absolutely paramount for you to retain your belief in this collection of book(s). Me? No-so-much....

This topic is about who wrote the Torah, not did Moses exist or about supernatural claims. So, who's the one diverting?

And I already gave my response for the debate question, more than once. And since you are not getting much action here from others, maybe you can either move on to another topic, or, field the follow-up observations I presented, which I see as directly related. Especially since this topic was created, as a continuance of our prior engagement,

Are you saying just because scholars don't believe Moses wrote it? This would be the appeal to authority fallacy. What I'm asking for is the evidence for their position.

No. I'm asking why you skipped 'Historia's' response. If it were me, or another skeptic, posting the exact same reply, you would likely have let us 'have it.'