The Exodus! Did it Really Happen?

[POI]

The Bible claims an Exodus took place. Many state it was not an actual event. Since the Bible makes a positive claim, in that an 'Exodus" took place, do we have positive evidence to support the claim?

For Debate:

1. Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence? If so, what?

2. If it should turn out that the Exodus did not take place, does this fact sway the Christian believer's position at all? Or, does it not matter one way or another?

[TRANSPONDER]

....
A review on the Studiengemeinschaft Wort und Wissen (Word and Knowledge Study Community) website, whose members take a literal approach to the Bible, stated that it contained such "serious substantive and methodological errors" that it could not be recommended while agreeing that the Exodus took place. Peter van der Veen and Uwe Zerbst specifically criticized his identification of Jabal al-Lawz with Mount Sinai and a number of the geographical locations he thought to be part of the Exodus route.
surce[/indent]

For me, the one with best arguments and evidence wins, that I why I think Möller is more convincing than them who try to discredit him. I think the evidence shown in the book is good, no matter who says it.

That doesn't matter. Your declarations of faithbased preference (at best) cut no ice.What does cut ice is the case you can argue here. Whether all your own work or from Moller or anyone else. Name dropping as appeal to (spurious,it seems) Authority does not get you a win here, no more than posting references and links and telling us to go and do your research for you. You post no case, you get no win, even if you claim one.

[POI]

I'm reviving this topic. Thus far, it looks as though we've only had two Christians respond. One stated to go read a book and then aborted. The other offered a 'minimal facts' view, which means the Christian is not responsible for defending virtually any claim from the Bible. In other words, he offers Christians a 'get-outta-jail-free' card.

Christians, did the Exodus really happen? If not, does it matter? Please refer to the debate questions for further details.

[1213]

Christians, did the Exodus really happen?

Yes, I believe so.

[TRANSPONDER]

Christians, did the Exodus really happen?

Yes, I believe so.

Thank you. A Faithclaim was just the helpful response we needed. I used to accept the Exodus (though heavily mythologised) as some kind of emigration of the Hebrews in some proto Israel group from Egypt to go an occupy the lands of Canaa. Just as I once credited the nativities and even the resurrection as a (perhaps garbled) description of actual events.

I never swallowed Eden, nor the Flood. And then Exodus didn't seem to fit either, even if the naturally explained form with wading through reed- marshes and algae tinting the Nile rather than miracles.

But dating the event was a problem. The reference to chariots makes it new kingdom (though I suspect the expulsion of the Hykos by Ahmose, not Moses ) is a historical idea used by the writers, but the conquest is later, after the collapse of the Canaanite states along with the Hittites in the 12th -11th c BC and Israel, with Moab, Ammon and Edom, moved in and set up their own states.

There is a detail that the Bible says the exodus went into Sinai to avoid the land of the Philistines (it seems the Peleset (their grave goods are like proto -Greek pottery) were settled there by Ramesses III aster the attack by the sea peoples. But Merneptah's monument (dating before then) says that Israel already existed in Canaan. So Israel was in Canaan before the Philistines the Exodus was supposed to avoid even existed. I think it is a historicval slip cause by adaptation of fiddled history if not invented, to create an origin story for the Israelites. Oh yes, the Moses story has uncanny similarities to the story of Sargon, King of Akkad, the kingdom before Babylon. Which would fit with the writers of Genesis and Exodus simply borrowing Mesopotamian records and myths.

Now, much has been made of Canaanites in Egypt, with Hebrew sounding names 'proto hebrew' scrip and Hebrew looking immigrants in wall paintings. But it also works if the Israelites simply used the names and scripts of the Canaanites who were already there.

It's debatable and has been debated here in the inerrancy thread. But at least I have some reasons to doubt the Exodus, not least because the brick makers and builders seem to be a paid and housed workforce, looked after by the Pharaoh who knew theur value. Not driven slaves morte to mistreat them than get work done. That just is not reflected in the Egyptian records.

[POI]

Christians, did the Exodus really happen?

Yes, I believe so.

You believe so because the Bible says so alone, or other reason(s) as well? If other reason(s) as well, what exactly?

[1213]

You believe so because the Bible says so alone, or other reason(s) as well? If other reason(s) as well, what exactly?

I believe so, because Bible tells and I trust what the Bible tells. And, I believe it also because I think that is the best explanation for the story.

[1213]

Christians, did the Exodus really happen?

Yes, I believe so.

Thank you. A Faithclaim was just the helpful response we needed...

Naturally, why else would it have been asked.

...Ahmose, not Moses ...

Moses most probably was called Senmut in Egypt.

There is a detail that the Bible says the exodus went into Sinai to avoid the land of the Philistines (it seems the Peleset (their grave goods are like proto -Greek pottery) were settled there by Ramesses III aster the attack by the sea peoples. But Merneptah's monument (dating before then) says that Israel already existed in Canaan. So Israel was in Canaan before ...

Didn't they move from Canaan to Egypt? So, logically they were in Canaan before.

[TRANSPONDER]

Christians, did the Exodus really happen?

Yes, I believe so.

Thank you. A Faithclaim was just the helpful response we needed...

Naturally, why else would it have been asked.

To give a chance for the answer 'Maybe not, and this is why not'.

...Ahmose, not Moses ...

Moses most probably was called Senmut in Egypt.

How do you relate those two names? Exodus 2 says that the woman named him Moses, not Senmut. You really should read you Bible, not make stuff up.

I had a check and 'Senmut (Senenmut) does not appear in the Bible. There may be an attempt to relate Joseph to the noted Official in the time of Hatshepsut, but his parentage is known. And no scrap of evidence he was and adopted Hebrew.

There is a detail that the Bible says the exodus went into Sinai to avoid the land of the Philistines (it seems the Peleset (their grave goods are like proto -Greek pottery) were settled there by Ramesses III aster the attack by the sea peoples. But Merneptah's monument (dating before then) says that Israel already existed in Canaan. So Israel was in Canaan before ...

Didn't they move from Canaan to Egypt? So, logically they were in Canaan before.

There is no really good evidence (otseng did his very best with semitic slave -names and apparently Canaanite architecture) for a large identifiable Hebrew population in Egypt, and certainly not as an enslaved identifiable populace. So, no, there is no reason to suppose they were in Egypt and moves as a populace to Egypt. The evidence suggests they were already living neat to Canaan and moved into the plain after the 12th -11th century collapse.

There's not a lot to be found online, other than apologetics FOR the Exodus. One purporting to look at the pros and cons tries to explain away problems (no mention of Joseph of enslaved hebrews - they didn't want to talk about them) and the actual position (not at all represented online is set out succinctly here.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html

[POI]

You believe so because the Bible says so alone, or other reason(s) as well? If other reason(s) as well, what exactly?

I believe so, because Bible tells and I trust what the Bible tells. And, I believe it also because I think that is the best explanation for the story.

Okay, I get the first reason, "because the Bible says so."

But the second reason seems suspicious. Why? Please start by addressing the video I sent in post #12. I'll give you a heads up, before you watch it. There really looks to be a severe lack, or no evidence, to support this positive claim of an Exodus. Such a claim would leave behind MOUNDS of evidence. So where is it? Did God hide it or something? The reason I bring up the Exodus account, is because it is a claim which actually could be falsified. And thus far, it seems like it is falsified. I'd suggest start by refuting the video. Here it is again, for your convenience:

[1213]

...Such a claim would leave behind MOUNDS of evidence. ...

What and why?