A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

[POI]

Taken from "1213" --> http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/Owning_slaves.html

Notably, the quote below:

Owning slaves?

According to the Old Testament, peoples at least had right to own slaves. Many wonder, is that same right also valid for today’s disciples of Jesus.

1) Jesus didn’t directly deny owning slaves. So maybe it can be taught that it is valid right today also. However Jesus taught to do same to others that you want others to do to you. Therefore, if you don’t want yourself to be slave, don’t keep others in that position.

2) Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
Mat. 7:12

3) It is also good to notice that disciples of Jesus shouldn’t consider themselves superior to others. If we are all brothers and sisters, how could we keep other as a slave? Rather we should be servants to each other.

*************************

My response, thus far:

1) You are right, Jesus never tells humans that slavery is wrong. Instead, He looks to endorse the following two Bible passages A) and B):

A) Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. (Col. 3:22-24)

B) All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2 Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare[a] of their slaves. (1 Tim. 6:1-2)

A) This massage tells the slave to remain subservient, work as hard as one can; even when the master is away. This way, God will be proud of you, via the slave.

B) Respect your slave master. If the master happens to be a Christian, respect them even more.

As you can see, Jesus appears not to be against slavery at all. In fact, He condones such practices.

2) If this were the case for all humans, (the free and the enslaved), then Jesus would not have endorsed instructions for slavery.

3) Please remember the 'golden rule' was already expressed in the OT (i.e.) "you shall love your neighbor as yourself"(Lev. 19:18). Either never speak about the topic of slavery at all, or, tell the Bible readers that slavery is 'wrong'. Instead, the OT already instructs on how you may obtain slaves, how you may beat your slaves, and informs the reader that the slave master can own the slave for life, and also treat them as their property for life. The NT then merely reinforces such OT instruction.

Question(s) for debate:

Why didn't Jesus just abolish slavery practices, or never mention slavery at all? Seems rather confusing, to have left what He left in the NT Bible....?

Answer (post #401)

I'd say that the matter is clear. The OT does refer to chattel slavery - for foreigners. The Bible gives rules (attempting to be fair, no denial) for Jews enslaving others. It does not look like God, knowing that slavery is going to be a no- no in the age when his religion is user scrutiny, thought that he should make it clear that it was wrong. It looks like God thought it was ok, within limits. Paul gave it a thumbs -up and Jesus at least by not commenting, seems to be unaware that it is going to be one of the worst human crimes in modern times.

Thus, it is one more reason to believe the Bible, cover to cover...as the word of men of the time. And that's all it is. It is not even a valid guide to life- advice, morals or social conduct. It is, like any other book, judged by human moral standards, and I can prove it. If Christians did not judge the Bible by human moral codes, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[POI]

....God orders no criminal/civil charges against the master, and God orders NO compensation for the slave.

No that is not true, no such ORDER can be found in scripture. For more detailed analysis please see post #173

Again with another attempt at a red herring -->

There is no "Red herring" here. You explicitly state as quoted above that God made specific orders and base your conclusion on the claimed order. Unless you have an alternative meaning for order, it is perfectly legitimate to point out that there is in fact no such order.


If a policemen turned up at your house and said "The judge has ordered your car be confiscated" it would indeed be relevant to point out if no such order has been issued. If however you believe you can produce an order that states that ...

Well then not only are you mistaken, but you are still delivering a red herring; for which I'm still chasing... By 'God made specific orders', I mean God gave special instructions/directions/orders/other for slavery beatings. These special instructions/directions/orders are that slave masters receive no criminal/civil punishment, provided the slave recovers. And the only compensation a slave would receive, if you wish to call it that, is (s)he is set free if the slave master should happen to pop an out out, or bust their teeth.

As "Tam" alluded to prior, if 'local law enforcement', 'neighbors', or other, were to decide to try and compensate the slave, and/or punish the slave master for slavery beatings, that is their decision alone --- (independent of God). God, Himself, is clear that no 'punishment' is expressed/ordered/requested/other, against the slave master.

... the issue is easily settled : produce the order.If someone attempt to tow your car you would want to see in black and white they have been ORDERED to do so. It is not a red herring to request we read the order that states what you claim.

Not only are you doubling down on your given red herring argument, you are still wrong.

In the case of Exodus 21:20-21, if one was to try and arrest a slave master, because he had beaten his slave, (and the slave recovers); all the slave master would need to ask is... "produce the order" for my arrest? Sure, it might be a local government order, but it would not be "God's" order

[JehovahsWitness]

Your link above was an article specifically related to American chattel -slavery so of course it related to the enslavement of Africans.

If your point is that chattel slavery is not universally understood and practiced the same way and can vary in meaning from one era and nationality to another, I'll take it.

In the light of the above, the present discussion is about the enslavement as practiced by ancient Hebrews the terms of which are defined clearly in their scripture and do not necessarily reflect present day usage.

Post 145

I cannot see the relevance of Post #145.

(Please reference what you stated above in bold red)
....

Post #145 seems to be indicating some will dismiss the entire issue of slavery as being irrelevant to modern day theological discussion based on it being an ancient issue. If so, as I said, your post #145 does not address my post. If I misunderstood how your post is relevant to what I have posted feel free to clarify, preferably with words rather than colour.

(post 145 relevance) - To instead believe God had a hand in any of this topic, looks to require mental gymnastics, hoop jumping, rationalization, 'apologetics', and the like. Additional assumptions are required.

No mention of God was made in my post, it was a response to a lexical issue. Your post #145 and the above clarification is entirely unrelated to my post.

TRANSPONDER's point which, whether he knew it or not, essentially boiled down to: American chattel slavery cannot be used to define the terms of ancient Hebrew slavery, was valid and highlighted the need to properly define one's terms before debating ; something which is simply good show.

JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SLAVERY, SLAVE BEATING and ...THE MOSAIC LAW

[JehovahsWitness]

I mean God gave ...special instructions/directions/orders ...

Fair enough; unless he gave these orders by telepathy we should be able to read them somewhere!


SPOT THE ORDER

....God orders no criminal/civil charges against the master...

GOD ORDERS NO CHARGES BE MADE means God issued an order that, the slavebeaters are immune from any and all charges, provided the slave recovers. .

Produce this instruction/direction/order I'd like to read it for myself. I take it this fantom order/instruction will read something along the lines of ...

"I God hereby NOTIFY


all slavebeaters that as long as your slave recovers you cannot be charged with any other offense. SIGNED. ...GOD"

If however you are saying no such order actually EXISTED but the fact that EXODUS 21 exempts slave bearers from capital punishment under the specifics mentioned therein, feel free to confirm





JW




RELATED POSTS

Did God order absolute immunity for slavebeaters?
viewtopic.php?p=1079551#p1079551

Did slave owners in biblical times escape absolutely ALL punishment if unintentional manslaughter could be established?
viewtopic.php?p=1078563#p1078563

Is not demanding the death penalty for all beatings of slave "effectively" de facto permission to beat ?
viewtopic.php?p=1078846#p1078846

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SLAVERY, SLAVE BEATING and ...THE MOSAIC LAW

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

IF A SLAVE RECOVERED FROM A SEVERE BEATING, COULD HIS ABUSER STILL BE CHARGED WITH A CRIMINAL OFFENSE?


Answer: Yes he could. There was a specific mandate in the Laws Code which stipulated the following . ..

LEVITICUS 19:18 b - Aramaic Bible in Plain English

.... love your fellow man as yourself. I AM LORD JEHOVAH.

Under the above directive criminal or civil charges could be made although the death penalty could not be imposed.

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SLAVERY, SLAVE BEATING and ...THE MOSAIC LAW

[TRANSPONDER]

Exodus 21:20-21 ESV
“When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money".

There's your order. You won't of course argue that it doesn't match your own paraphrase of what I said it said. The point is not about the treatment of slaves (though it's bad enough) but the state of total ownership of a person - chattel slavery or non -Hebrews.

[JehovahsWitness]

GOD ORDERS NO CHARGES BE MADE means God issued an order that, the slavebeaters are immune from any and all charges, provided the slave recovers. .

Exodus 21:20-21 ESV
“When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money".

There's your order. ...

Where does it say no further charges can be made?

[TRANSPONDER]

IF A SLAVE RECOVERED FROM A SEVERE BEATING, COULD HIS ABUSER STILL BE CHARGED WITH A CRIMINAL OFFENSE?



Does the bible indicate how God would have felt about slaveowners beatings their slaves?
viewtopic.php?p=1078599#p1078599

Did the principle of loving one's neighbour exclude foreign slaves?
viewtopic.php?p=1078723#p1078723

No. Treating your fellow man as yourself, and foreign residents having the same rights as Hebrews does not extend to those who are your slaves, no more than the way the Hebrews treated people they went to war with. If you consider that one contradicts the other, well...that's the Bible.

[JehovahsWitness]

No. Treating your fellow man as yourself, .... does not extend to those who are your slaves.

So you claim. Now all you have to do is .... prove It!




RELATED POSTS

Was there really "one law" for all in Israel?
viewtopic.php?p=1079612#p1079612

[TRANSPONDER]

GOD ORDERS NO CHARGES BE MADE means God issued an order that, the slavebeaters are immune from any and all charges, provided the slave recovers. .

Exodus 21:20-21 ESV
“When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money".

There's your order. ...

Where does it say no further charges can be made?

Your pettifogging strawman is irrelevant. The rules on slavery plainly show that for Non Hebrews, it was lifetime ownership of a person - chattel slavery, just as much as it was for Africans transported to the Americas. The rules on how the owner should treat their slaves or what they could be charged with (never mind your total strawman about any extra or subsequent charges) make no difference to the fact that the OT accommodates chattel slavery of non Hebrews and thus OT morality falls short of what we today considered ethical.

I also wonder whether your habit of giving links to your debunked earlier arguments as though they were useful references is ethical. Your habit of giving links to JW specious propaganda does your case no favours, either.

[JehovahsWitness]

GOD ORDERS NO CHARGES BE MADE means God issued an order that, the slavebeaters are immune from any and all charges, provided the slave recovers. .

Exodus 21:20-21 ESV
“When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money".

There's your order. ....

Where does it say no further charges can be made?

Your pettifogging strawman is irrelevant.

There is no "pettifogging strawman" on my part: You produce a scripture that you claim issues immunity from all further charges and it makes no mention of further charges. My follow up question, which highlighted the fact that the scriptural evidence you produced does not say what you claim, is entirely appropriate.




JW