Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

[POI]

Below is a 20 minute video. For the ones who opt not to watch, I'll start with the following question? (Which may then lead to many others, as this is a fairly new concept of thought for me)....

Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering? Before you Christians answer, I trust you are already aware of this guy's counter points?

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #20]

To take it further, God supposedly dishes out various punishments.

Some (not as many as people think) which are necessary to protect Eden (the spiritual realm), and life.

Adam is banished from Eden.

Indeed. He can no longer be trusted to be there. If someone wreaked havoc in your house, doing the one thing they were told not to do (for their own safety and the safety of others), would you let them stay to continue to wreak havoc, destroying even the home that their children could one day return to? Or would you show them the door? If a stranger, probably permanently. If your own (adult) child, probably until they proved they could be trusted back in your house, that they would not harm their siblings, that they would respect you and your house.

The snake's legs are taken away.

It is a seraph (a spirit being), not a snake. It's legs are not taken away; but it can no longer walk upright, because of what it (he) did.

But Eden and all in it is punished when it did nothing wrong.

Eden is not punished. Eden (the spiritual realm) is protected. Same as you might protect your house, including protecting your house for your grandchildren/great grandchildren to return.

Even Adam and Eve are protected from the full possible consequences of their actions. Though death entered into them on that day, the lived for much longer (and will receive a resurrection and may also receive eternal life).

Adam's offspring inherit the world that he subjected to death - just as one generation inherits the problems the previous generation created in the world - and they inherit the flesh that Adam had been given AFTER he ate of death (the tree of knowing good/life and bad/death). But God provides a way for them to receive life and to be reconciled to Him and return to Eden (the spiritual realm).

And you are all wicked and sinful, but mind you treat those animals kindly'. Does that make any sense?

Does it make sense that sinful beings are still required to treat animals well?

Of course. Why would it not? Is it impossible for man to treat animals with kindness? Of course not.

Never mind that does not address the problem of the animals becoming sinful, though they did nothing wrong.

But animals do exist in the physical world (outside the Garden of Eden) and the physical world (outside the Garden of Eden) is where Adam allowed death to enter. The earth (and all in it) was given to Adam to govern, Adam subjected/sold it (and all in it, including his own offspring) to Death. This is why Christ is described as giving His life as a RANSOM. To exchange HIS life for all the life that Adam sold.

Come on, Tam's evasion that God wanted man to treat animals kindly does not address the problem that God allowed the animals to Fall along with Adam. Really? And to play the 'God knows best' card is the ultimate evasion, not even an excuse.

It is not about animals falling. It is about Adam subjecting all that had been given to him (including the world in which animals live) to sin and death.

As for "God knows best", Nobspeople introduced God being all knowing. I just followed up on that. It was not an evasion or an excuse, just a fact about what it means to be all knowing.



Peace again to you.

[1213]

...
Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering?...

I believe all suffering is because God allowed people to reject Him. People wanted to know evil and because of that they were expelled to this first death, where we can experience what evil truly means. Unfortunately it can be painful. Is it bad for animals, difficult to know, because I don't really know what kind of experience this is for animals, do they think or understand anything, or are they mindless.

[TRANSPONDER]

Look. Eden is where it all started, origins of man, origins of the animals. Adam kicked out to protect Eden... But the animals apparently went sinful along with Adam, or why the problem of evil extending to the animals? Just because they leave doesn't make them sinful. Or shouldn't. They did nothing wrong, even if one buys the argument that Adam's sin damned all his descendants.

You must surely see that this isn't just or fair and if humans can see that (if they are not blinded by Faith) then surely God - unless he operates on a moral code that has nothing to do with the Righteousness' he supposedly writ on our hearts - knows that is not just, fair or moral, even if the problem of Evil applied to humans is, which a lot of people conclude, it isn't.

[TRANSPONDER]

...
Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering?...

I believe all suffering is because God allowed people to reject Him. People wanted to know evil and because of that they were expelled to this first death, where we can experience what evil truly means. Unfortunately it can be painful. Is it bad for animals, difficult to know, because I don't really know what kind of experience this is for animals, do they think or understand anything, or are they mindless.

That's as good an explanation as I can imagine, but it still has this problem of why God allowed Adam's fall to bring down all the rest of Creation- which did nothing wrong - with him. Tam's 'God want us to treat animals nice' is an excuse, and where in the Bible does God imply that Man can't do whatever he likes to animals? As I said, God could have revoked Adam's lordship over animals because he sinned and they didn't. Anyone with their head on the right way up could have worked that out.

JW's excuse that God knows best is nothing more than evasion of the Problem.

[brunumb]

If someone wreaked havoc in your house, doing the one thing they were told not to do (for their own safety and the safety of others), would you let them stay to continue to wreak havoc, destroying even the home that their children could one day return to?

Adam and Eve ate a piece of fruit. They weren't wreaking havoc. They were convinced it was ok because they were told so by another creature in God's perfect garden. There was no threat to anyone else. All of the consequences of their act of disobedience were imposed by God himself. No one else had the ability to do that. Saying "sin entered the world" is nothing more than rhetoric. A meaningless non-explanation, unless one can explain how sin caused pain and suffering to suddenly occur. Why should animals suddenly need to devour each other in order to survive? The entire web of life requires a cycling of energy and for most of the animal kingdom that energy comes from the consumption of other animals. That even applies to humans. So, somehow sin re-designed God's entire creation to suit this new scenario did it? Not only does the punishment not fit the crime, but it points to a barbaric God with no genuine empathy for living things, not even his favourite pets.

[POI]

Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering?

Biblically speaking, for the same reason he allows human suffering, namely to settle the issues raised in the garden of Eden.




FURTHER READING : Does God Care About Animals?
https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines ... t-Animals/



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JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

.THE PURPOSE OF LIFE, ANIMALS and ... CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

Your response creates curious question(s). Are you an OEC (old earth creationist) or a YEC (young earth creationist)?

Your assertion, that the 'Garden of Eden', is what set off such chain of events, assumes that either:

a. animals only started to exist when humans started to exist, or...
b. that the current observed animal nature, that we see today, and also explained in the video, only began to exist after the "fall'? That animals experienced no 'suffering' before the fall?

[Tcg]

Is it bad for animals, difficult to know, because I don't really know what kind of experience this is for animals, do they think or understand anything, or are they mindless.

Animals are far from mindless. Dolphins introduce themselves to other dolphins using their unique signature whistle. Orcas use language as well and live in a community as do dolphins. African Grey Parrots not only mimic human language, but some have been known to create unique sentences. Elephants mourn the deaths of family members and visit the bones of their dead. Animals clearly think and understand a great deal.

There is no reason to suspect they wouldn't feel physical pain and the example of elephants gives us reason to conclude that some experience emotional pain. This shouldn't surprise us; we experience these things and are after all animals as well.


Tcg

[POI]

...
Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering?...

I believe all suffering is because God allowed people to reject Him. People wanted to know evil and because of that they were expelled to this first death, where we can experience what evil truly means. Unfortunately it can be painful. Is it bad for animals, difficult to know, because I don't really know what kind of experience this is for animals, do they think or understand anything, or are they mindless.

I posit the same response issued to JW:

Your response creates curious question(s). Are you an OEC (old earth creationist) or a YEC (young earth creationist)?

Your assertion, that the 'Garden of Eden', is what set off such chain of events, assumes that either:

a. animals only started to exist when humans started to exist, or...
b. that the current observed animal nature, that we see today, and also explained in the video, only began to exist after the "fall'? That animals experienced no 'suffering' before the fall?

[POI]

Peace to you,

[Replying to POI in post #1]

I don't see how this is much different than 'the problem of evil' or of suffering in general. The problem only exists if one starts with the assumption that this world is exactly as God created it. But that is not true.

This is the world AFTER Adam subjected it (and all life in it) to Death. So this is the world AFTER sin (error, which includes disease) and death entered INTO it, through Adam. The world and all in it had been given to Adam to govern, to 'husband' (as in 'husbandry', to care for). Adam then turned around and subjected this world and all in it (including his own offspring), to Death.

That affects everything in this world, including animals.

Most of us did not know the world before sin and death entered into it. We have only known the world after sin and death entered into it. But this world is not the Kingdom of God. Christ has not yet returned and established His Kingdom over the earth. We will know the difference then.


**

(Just as a side point: as for animals not being aware of their own pain, they might not DWELL on it (like we often do), but of course they feel their pain. It doesn't even make sense to me to suggest otherwise. My Boston was SO tough, had so many problems with his eyes, even ended up losing one - it ruptured during the night after surgery and he yelped and trembled afterward next to me; he had surgery to remove it that morning, and then he was back to his crazy foolish self a few days later. But some animals can go into a depression. Just because they bounce back and adapt fast doesn't mean they did not feel their pain. The fact that they can become depressed in the first place should be a hint that they are indeed aware of their pain. Maybe they don't think about it like we do our own pain, but they do react to it - be it emotional or physical pain. **As a second side point, flat-faced breeds are not natural. Man breeds that trait into them, but there are problems with breathing and eyes that come with. Those are just the problems I know about from having a Boston, there are probably others as well.)



Peace again to you.

You have been issued the same response just given to JW and 1213:

Your response creates curious question(s). Are you an OEC (old earth creationist) or a YEC (young earth creationist)?

Your assertion, that the 'Garden of Eden', is what set off such chain of events, assumes that either:

a. animals only started to exist when humans started to exist, or...
b. that the current observed animal nature, that we see today, and also explained in the video, only began to exist after the "fall'? That animals experienced no 'suffering' before the fall?

[Tcg]

(Just as a side point: as for animals not being aware of their own pain, they might not DWELL on it (like we often do), but of course they feel their pain. It doesn't even make sense to me to suggest otherwise. My Boston was SO tough, had so many problems with his eyes, even ended up losing one - it ruptured during the night after surgery and he yelped and trembled afterward next to me; he had surgery to remove it that morning, and then he was back to his crazy foolish self a few days later. But some animals can go into a depression. Just because they bounce back and adapt fast doesn't mean they did not feel their pain. The fact that they can become depressed in the first place should be a hint that they are indeed aware of their pain. Maybe they don't think about it like we do our own pain, but they do react to it - be it emotional or physical pain. **As a second side point, flat-faced breeds are not natural. Man breeds that trait into them, but there are problems with breathing and eyes that come with. Those are just the problems I know about from having a Boston, there are probably others as well.)



Peace again to you.

Housecats, in what may be the remnants of a survival advantage, will not show pain even when they are experiencing a great deal of it. Cats in the wild who showed signs of injury were likely to become targets of predators. I'm not sure if this is true of domesticated dogs as well or not. In any case, even if animals don't display obvious signs of pain that is not a reliable means to determine they aren't.


Tcg