The Exodus! Did it Really Happen?

[POI]

The Bible claims an Exodus took place. Many state it was not an actual event. Since the Bible makes a positive claim, in that an 'Exodus" took place, do we have positive evidence to support the claim?

For Debate:

1. Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence? If so, what?

2. If it should turn out that the Exodus did not take place, does this fact sway the Christian believer's position at all? Or, does it not matter one way or another?

[POI]

Christians.... There has been sparce Christian responses, but no substance. Below are the two debate questions again:

1. Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence? If so, what? [So far, the silence is deafening. We are attempting to discuss a claim which would involve/include millions, over 100's of years.]

2. If it should turn out that the Exodus did not take place, does this fact sway the Christian believer's position at all? Or, does it not matter one way or another? [Well, likely not, since we have "minimal facts" Christians, and/or others who may also chalk up "the Exodus" claim to intentional myth, and/or others who chose to remain 'agnostic' since there is no evidence in support of the claim (which essentially means -- it may be true until you can prove it's false, because the claim is in the Bible so we at least have to consider it), and maybe some others... -- [But the Christian can still just say it cannot be proven false simply because there is no evidence to support the claim.]

[SiNcE_1985]

The Bible claims an Exodus took place. Many state it was not an actual event. Since the Bible makes a positive claim, in that an 'Exodus" took place, do we have positive evidence to support the claim?

For Debate:

1. Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence? If so, what?

I reject the notion that we necessarily need corroborating external Biblical evidence.

2. If it should turn out that the Exodus did not take place, does this fact sway the Christian believer's position at all? Or, does it not matter one way or another?

I would say, yeah.

The Bible is too intertwined with the Exodus...and God constantly reminding the Israelites of their deliverance from Egypt throughout the OT...and even in the NT (Acts), Stephen is recalling the events of the Exodus...and the book of Hebrews, also mentions the Exodus.

So with the Exodus goes anything related to it.

[POI]

I reject the notion that we necessarily need corroborating external Biblical evidence.

Does this mean you concede that, outside the Bible's say-so, there exists nothing, or, you may currently just not know of any evidence to reference, which may indeed corroborate the claim(s) of an Exodus?

And why do you reject the notion? Wouldn't you think that such an event of this magnitude, which not only involved millions, but covered a large territory, and also ultimately spanned over centuries of time in total, would at least leave behind some specific scraps?

[SiNcE_1985]

Does this mean you concede that, outside the Bible's say-so, there exists nothing, or, you may currently just not know of any evidence to reference, which may indeed corroborate the claim(s) of an Exodus?

There is nothing that I'm aware of, no.

And why do you reject the notion? Wouldn't you think that such an event of this magnitude, which not only involved millions, but covered a large territory, and also ultimately spanned over centuries of time in total, would at least leave behind some specific scraps?

Scraps like what, exactly?

I don't think we should be equally surprised that there isn't evidence, than if there was.

5 years after they left, sure, we expect to see evidence.

But after 4,000 years of new Egyptian settlements and countless of settlements from the Greeks and others..not sure what you'd expect to find.

[POI]

Does this mean you concede that, outside the Bible's say-so, there exists nothing, or, you may currently just not know of any evidence to reference, which may indeed corroborate the claim(s) of an Exodus?

There is nothing that I'm aware of, no.

And why do you reject the notion? Wouldn't you think that such an event of this magnitude, which not only involved millions, but covered a large territory, and also ultimately spanned over centuries of time in total, would at least leave behind some specific scraps?

Scraps like what, exactly?

I don't think we should be equally surprised that there isn't evidence, than if there was.

5 years after they left, sure, we expect to see evidence.

But after 4,000 years of new Egyptian settlements and countless of settlements from the Greeks and others..not sure what you'd expect to find.

Is your bar for evidence this low for all major claims, or just the ones from the Bible?

[SiNcE_1985]

Is your bar for evidence this low for all major claims, or just the ones from the Bible?

I already explained why my bar isn't high for this particular claim..and my answer stands.

Are you going to answer my question as to what scraps you feel should have been left behind as proof of the Exodus?

As if a McDonald's wrapper should have been left behind by a fleeing Israelite or something?

[POI]

Is your bar for evidence this low for all major claims, or just the ones from the Bible?

I already explained why my bar isn't high for this particular claim..and my answer stands.

Are you going to answer my question as to what scraps you feel should have been left behind as proof of the Exodus?

As if a McDonald's wrapper should have been left behind by a fleeing Israelite or something?

Too bad both Jewish and Egyptian archeologists don't have your logic. They should already know nothing could ever be found. For decades, these archeologists continue to waste their time.

All your response demonstrates, is that there IS no evidence for an Exodus. The Bible is the claim, and no evidence backs up this claim. You are merely giving an excuse as to why nothing has been found, despite looking and looking and looking.

According to Scripture, the Jews inhabited Egypt for hundreds of years, which also includes millions of Jews continuing to inhabit Egyptian territory after the Exodus. And yet, no mass graves, bones, DNA, nothing? Further, the Egyptians, who were meticulous record keepers, mention nothing of plagues, or anything about how they owned Jewish slaves, etc? And when the Jews made the journey from point A to point B, nothing at all there either?

Further, during the Egyptian conquest of Canaan, (around 1450 BCE to 1100 BCE), which would have included the said time of the Exodus story, the Egyptians inhabited/occupied the destination area in which the Jews were said to "flee to". This means the Jews fled from Egypt, to other Egypt? That makes no sense. Why would they flee from Egypt to more Egypt? Maybe Egyptians secretly wanted to re-station the Jewish slave camps

Here's a thought, maybe during this time period, the Jews were never in this region at all? Which then renders the Bible untrustworthy.

[TRANSPONDER]

Is your bar for evidence this low for all major claims, or just the ones from the Bible?

I already explained why my bar isn't high for this particular claim..and my answer stands.

Are you going to answer my question as to what scraps you feel should have been left behind as proof of the Exodus?

As if a McDonald's wrapper should have been left behind by a fleeing Israelite or something?

The 'scraps' as you call them are really what is found in the Egyptian record. The Exodus story requires a large identifiable and specific slave population in Egypt, even though apparently Judaism had rather lapsed until Moses codified it in the Commandments and Laws. The water is muddied by a number of Canaanite migrants coming into Egypt to trade and stay and some appeared to become slaves or at least servants. These look similar to Hebrews or rather Hebrews derived names and writing from them. Indeed the Hyksos (who were most decidedly not Moses' Israelites) often get confused with them, notably by Josephus who identifies the 'Shepherd Kings' of the Canaanite dynasties with the Hebrews and I suspect this was not his idea but a belief amongst Hebrews before his time.

The point is, Egypt does not give any records of enslaved Hebrews as a demographic, and the historical conditions of the time simply do not admit of a timeline for an Exodus. It isn't a question of searching for 'Bible Archaeology'. "Hah! I found a bronze age belt buckle - probably belonged to Moses". No scraps of pottery instant Ramen sherd or a iron age wooden mobile phone case wouldn't prove the Exodus, even if they were found. And never mind the Ron Wyatt Moses site nonsense. It is more the historical context both in the Bible and out of it n really makes the Exodus improbable, if not impossible.

"That's a lot of loose claims, but nothing substantive."

Ok. First, we have Joseph sold off into Egypt and rising to high rank, following Pharaoh in a chariot. That puts it at least the 16th - 17th dynasties, as the Egyptians didn't have them until they borrowed this new war - weapon from the Hyksos.

After that, as already pointed out above, Egypt ruled the Sinai and Canaan. The Israelites couldn't have escaped from Pharaoh. The only window is in the time of Alhenaten when one might make his father the tough pharaoh Moses got away from and the son (Amenhotep IV) losing control of Sinai and Canaan. There is no other time for it.

There are still other textural and historical problems, but this shows the Real evidence around the Exodus - discussion, not demands for Aaron's pocket knife found in a Sinai sand - dune.

[SiNcE_1985]

Too bad both Jewish and Egyptian archeologists don't have your logic. They should already know nothing could ever be found. For decades, these archeologists continue to waste their time.

It is like the game of basketball, and the crossover dribble.

Sure, it is nice to have good crossover dribble, but you can get by without it.

See what I'm saying?

All your response demonstrates, is that there IS no evidence for an Exodus. The Bible is the claim, and no evidence backs up this claim.

No external Biblical evidence backs up this claim.

And I do not buy the notion that external Biblical evidence is required.

You are merely giving an excuse as to why nothing has been found, despite looking and looking and looking.

According to Scripture, the Jews inhabited Egypt for hundreds of years, which also includes millions of Jews continuing to inhabit Egyptian territory after the Exodus. And yet, no mass graves, bones, DNA, nothing? Further, the Egyptians, who were meticulous record keepers, mention nothing of plagues, or anything about how they owned Jewish slaves, etc? And when the Jews made the journey from point A to point B, nothing at all there either?

Sure, as if one of the hieroglyphs would read "we got asses handed to us by the God of the Israelites...our Gods were clearly no match for Yahweh".

Second, chances are, you aren't going to believe in the Bible regardless of the fact...making what is/isn't in the Bible irrelevant at that point.

Further, during the Egyptian conquest of Canaan, (around 1450 BCE to 1100 BCE), which would have included the said time of the Exodus story, the Egyptians inhabited/occupied the destination area in which the Jews were said to "flee to". This means the Jews fled from Egypt, to other Egypt? That makes no sense. Why would they flee from Egypt to more Egypt? Maybe Egyptians secretly wanted to re-station the Jewish slave camps

Depends...maybe the reason the Egyptians did not continue dominate control of that region was because precisely because of the Exodus...according to the Bible, the entire Egyptian army was wiped out.

Welp, there goes your muscle right there.

After that, it was like taking candy from a baby.

And why would they fled from Egypt to more Egypt? Because God had guaranteed them the land and once that happened and there was no "more Egypt" at that point.

Here's a thought, maybe during this time period, the Jews were never in this region at all? Which then renders the Bible untrustworthy.

Sure, go with that.

[otseng]

Sure, as if one of the hieroglyphs would read "we got asses handed to us by the God of the Israelites...our Gods were clearly no match for Yahweh".

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