Rejecting Catholicism???

[WinePusher]

I notice there is a pretty large amount of people who belong to the "Rejected Catholicism" usergroup?

1) Would you please list your reasons as to why you rejected catholicism? If you don't want to, that's fine.

[fewwillfindit]

I belonged to the group at first, but decided to remove it because I want to be defined by what I am for rather than what I am against.

My reasons for rejecting Catholicism (there are probably some that I am forgetting):

• Veneration of idols (relics)
• Mary died sinless
• Mary died a virgin
• Prayer to Mary
• Mary as co-mediatrix (mediator) with Christ
• Prayer to other dead people (invoking saints)
• Papacy
• Papal succession
• Pope taking the title, "Vicar of Christ"
• Papal infallibility while speaking ex cathedra
• Transubstantiation
• Purgatory
• Penance (we cannot atone for our own sins in any manner)
• Church has authority to pass judgment on and interpret Scripture for members
• Mass/Eucharist is an actual real propitiatory sacrifice offered on behalf of living and dead people
• Salvation is only found within the Catholic Church
• Sacred Tradition is authoritative even when it contradicts Scripture, thus elevating it above Scripture

According to the Council of Trent, the above must be believed to be a Catholic. These teachings cannot be found explicitly in the 66 books of the Bible, and in some cases are explicitly contrary to the Bible, therefore I reject Catholicism and its dogma.

I am answering because the nature of the OP seems to be merely asking "why" and didn't seem like it was intended for debate. I've debated this recently and am a bit burned out on it for the time being. It seems like debating it is futile anyhow, as neither side, since the Reformation, has shown any intention of budging an inch. It is what it is, and certain people are attracted to one or the other and almost seem predisposed to it.

[WinePusher]

I belonged to the group at first, but decided to remove it because I want to be defined by what I am for rather than what I am against.

My reasons for rejecting Catholicism (there are probably some that I am forgetting):

• Veneration of idols (relics)
• Mary died sinless
• Mary died a virgin
• Prayer to Mary
• Mary as co-mediatrix (mediator) with Christ
• Prayer to other dead people (invoking saints)
• Papacy
• Papal succession
• Pope taking the title, "Vicar of Christ"
• Papal infallibility while speaking ex cathedra
• Transubstantiation
• Purgatory
• Penance (we cannot atone for our own sins in any manner)
• Church has authority to pass judgment on and interpret Scripture for members
• Mass/Eucharist is an actual real propitiatory sacrifice offered on behalf of living and dead people
• Salvation is only found within the Catholic Church
• Sacred Tradition is authoritative in addition to Scripture

According to the Council of Trent, the above must be believed to be a Catholic. These teachings cannot be found explicitly in the 66 books of the Bible, and in some cases are explicitly contrary to the Bible, therefore I reject Catholicism and its dogma.

I am answering because the nature of the OP seems to be merely asking "why" and didn't seem like it was intended for debate. I've debated this recently and am a bit burned out on it for the time being. It seems like debating it is futile anyhow, as neither side, since the Reformation, has shown any intention of budging an inch. It is what it is, and certain people are attracted to one or the other and almost seem predisposed to it.

I would actually agree with many points on your list, so I'd appropriately be considered a heretic in some ways. But there are some on your list that I do believe in and assert, and I'll try to give a defense of them later on in the week.

[fewwillfindit]

I would actually agree with many points on your list, so I'd appropriately be considered a heretic in some ways. But there are some on your list that I do believe in and assert, and I'll try to give a defense of them later on in the week.

I look forward to reading your defense. I hope it isn't so compelling that I am sucked into the debate against my will.

[Murad]

Gratz on the new subforum.

I would actually agree with many points on your list, so I'd appropriately be considered a heretic in some ways.

A question out of curiosity.

When would a Christian be considered a heretic? Can you be a catholic while rejecting certain teachings of catholicism?

A personal question:
Do you think the Catholic Church would see you as a heretic?

[Lux]

I was born in a mostly Catholic country: almost 80% claiming to be catholic (with about 1/5 of them actually going to church), the CC receiving financial support from the government. I went to a Catholic school ages 7 through 12, and felt somewhat "peer pressured" to belong to some sort of religion. The obvious choice was Catholicism.

I started attending catechism classes, behind my parents' backs. My biggest problem with them was that the woman read to us stories as incredible as the ones we read in Literature, but claimed they actually happened. I was already a bit of a skeptic, and didn't really believe any of it. Of course, I felt bad about that, and one day I decided to approach the teacher after class to consult her about that. Her response can be summed up to "We know they are true cause they're in the Bible, and you should believe it cause god wants you to". When I asked her how can we know the Bible is not lying, she made a face that I'd probably find hilarious now, but it kind of scared me back then. I guess 10 year olds don't usually question catechism teachers

Other than that we mostly practiced for the First Communion ceremony, and the whole thing with the candles and the lines and the exact movements seemed odd to me. I did believe in god back then, but it was hard for me to believe that god cared about such little things as the way we stand in line to receive communion. I did like the singing, and remained in the school's chorus way after I'd rejected catholicism.

My experience with catechism left me basically with:

Doubts about the Bible.
Fear of hell/punishment from god.
Confusion about the nature of god and Jesus.

A chat with a friend of mine whose family was devoutly catholic was a key moment. I learned about catholic stands in issues such as homosexuality and birth control, and that pretty much settled the matter for me.

I didn't believe in the sort of god that punishes you.
I doubted the Bible and already disliked some of it.
I had failed to accomplish the personal relationship with god/Jesus.
I didn't care for the ritual part.
I could not even understand the concept of the Trinity (not that I fully grasp it now )
I held the opposing point of view of the CC on the issues of the day.

In other words, I was probably not even a christian by anyone's standards and definitely not a catholic, so I walked away from catechism and catholicism (much to my classmates' and teachers shock).

Sorry if this is long and boring.

[theopoesis]

Sorry if this is long and boring.

I'm a lurker on this thread, but I figured I'd pipe in and say that was neither long, nor boring. You should read a few of my posts. Now those are long and boring. I found this an interesting story, though I'm sorry we fell on different sides of the religious question when it was all over. I am glad to have heard your story, though. Thanks.

[Lux]

Sorry if this is long and boring.

I'm a lurker on this thread, but I figured I'd pipe in and say that was neither long, nor boring. You should read a few of my posts. Now those are long and boring. I found this an interesting story, though I'm sorry we fell on different sides of the religious question when it was all over. I am glad to have heard your story, though. Thanks.

Thanks! It's good to get a chance to share the fact that I didn't just decline to be a christian because I was feeling particularly evil that day I'm getting more and more convinced that some people are soft-wired for different levels of skepticism.

I have read some of your posts, they are not boring at all.

[De Maria]

I belonged to the group at first, but decided to remove it because I want to be defined by what I am for rather than what I am against.

OK

According to the Council of Trent, the above must

Which I placed below in order that the readers will understand my response to each.

be believed to be a Catholic. These teachings cannot be found explicitly in the 66 books of the Bible,

Some are explicit, some are implied.

and in some cases are explicitly contrary to the Bible, therefore I reject Catholicism and its dogma.

None are contrary to Scripture.

My reasons for rejecting Catholicism (there are probably some that I am forgetting):

• Veneration of idols (relics)

There are several errors embedded in this little blurb of yours.

1. We don't venerate "idols". Idols are representations of gods. We only venerate the images of Saints and we don't consider them gods.
2. I presume you claim that all images are idols. However, God, Himself, commanded the making of images of cherubim and serpents(Exodus 25:18;Numbers 21:9). Therefore, the mere existence and veneration of an image does not make it an idol nor idol worship.
3. Relics are different than images. They are items which were either part of the body of the Saint or clothing or something which they touched. These have been known to carry the grace of God from OT times (2 Kings 13:21; Acts 19:12).
4. We venerate the Saints because they were friends of God and that is what God wills:
Genesis 12:3
I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.�

[*]Mary died sinless

I'm not aware that Scripture says that she sinned. Please provide Scripture and verse.

[*]Mary died a virgin

1. Scripture calls Mary a Virgin and provides no evidence that she did not die a virgin.
2. The existence of so called "brothers" of Christ can be traced to the other Mary, the "sister" of the Mother of Jesus Christ:
Matthew 27:56
Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children.

[*]Prayer to Mary

Logically inferred from Scripture. Prayer means "request". And Jesus, being Mary's Son, obviously requested of her everything from a mother's love to bodily sustenance and clothing.

[*]Mary as co-mediatrix (mediator) with Christ

From Scripture we are explicitly told that everyone of us is a co worker with God:
1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

Mary, then, is chief among the CO labourers, because of her unique position. She, amongst all of us, brought the Son of God into the world.

[*]Prayer to other dead people (invoking saints)

This one is quite puzzling to me. Since Jesus said:
John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Therefore, believers in Christ never die. BELIEVEST THOU THIS?

If you do, then it should be easy to realize that those who die in Christ remain in the body of Christ and those in the body of Christ belong to one another and are concerned for one another.

If not, well...?

[*]Papacy

Jesus Christ assigned Simon as the Rock upon which He built His Church. In giving Simon His name (i.e. Rock), He signified that Simon would lead His Church. He then proceeded to give Simon the Keys to the Kingdom, essentially empowering him to save souls (Matt 16:18-19)

[*]Papal succession

Christ established many offices. Every Apostolic office was to continue in perpetuity. There is no evidence in Scripture that the offices which Jesus established were to end with the death of the one first assigned to that office. Nor does that make sense.

[*]Pope taking the title, "Vicar of Christ"

Essentially, Christ gave Simon His office.

John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Christ is our Shepherd. But He commanded Simon to feed His Sheep. Effectively assigning Simon as His Vicar or Viceroy, or Vice Pastor if you will.

[*]Papal infallibility while speaking ex cathedra

This is why he has the keys to the Kingdom. Wherein Heaven confirms everything he binds and looses on earth.

[*]Transubstantiation

John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Sounds like transubstantiation to me.

[*]Purgatory

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

[*]Penance (we cannot atone for our own sins in any manner)

1 Peter 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

[*]Church has authority to pass judgment on and interpret Scripture for members

Matthew 18:17
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

[*]Mass/Eucharist is an actual real propitiatory sacrifice offered on behalf of living and dead people

All are alive unto God. And the Mass is simply Jesus' reformulation of the Passover sacrifice.

[*]Salvation is only found within the Catholic Church

That is true. But not just those within the Catholic Church will be saved:
Acts 10:33-35 (King James Version)

33Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.

34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

[*]Sacred Tradition is authoritative even when it contradicts Scripture, thus elevating it above Scripture[/list]

Sacred Tradition does not contradict Scripture.

According to the Council of Trent, the above must be believed to be a Catholic. These teachings cannot be found explicitly in the 66 books of the Bible, and in some cases are explicitly contrary to the Bible, therefore I reject Catholicism and its dogma.

I am answering because the nature of the OP seems to be merely asking "why" and didn't seem like it was intended for debate. I've debated this recently and am a bit burned out on it for the time being. It seems like debating it is futile anyhow, as neither side, since the Reformation, has shown any intention of budging an inch. It is what it is, and certain people are attracted to one or the other and almost seem predisposed to it.

No problem. I just wanted to provide the Catholic answer for the record.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

I was born in a mostly Catholic country: almost 80% claiming to be catholic (with about 1/5 of them actually going to church), the CC receiving financial support from the government. I went to a Catholic school ages 7 through 12, and felt somewhat "peer pressured" to belong to some sort of religion. The obvious choice was Catholicism.

I started attending catechism classes, behind my parents' backs. My biggest problem with them was that the woman read to us stories as incredible as the ones we read in Literature, but claimed they actually happened. I was already a bit of a skeptic, and didn't really believe any of it. Of course, I felt bad about that, and one day I decided to approach the teacher after class to consult her about that. Her response can be summed up to "We know they are true cause they're in the Bible, and you should believe it cause god wants you to". When I asked her how can we know the Bible is not lying, she made a face that I'd probably find hilarious now, but it kind of scared me back then. I guess 10 year olds don't usually question catechism teachers

Other than that we mostly practiced for the First Communion ceremony, and the whole thing with the candles and the lines and the exact movements seemed odd to me. I did believe in god back then, but it was hard for me to believe that god cared about such little things as the way we stand in line to receive communion. I did like the singing, and remained in the school's chorus way after I'd rejected catholicism.

My experience with catechism left me basically with:

Doubts about the Bible.
Fear of hell/punishment from god.
Confusion about the nature of god and Jesus.

A chat with a friend of mine whose family was devoutly catholic was a key moment. I learned about catholic stands in issues such as homosexuality and birth control, and that pretty much settled the matter for me.

I didn't believe in the sort of god that punishes you.
I doubted the Bible and already disliked some of it.
I had failed to accomplish the personal relationship with god/Jesus.
I didn't care for the ritual part.
I could not even understand the concept of the Trinity (not that I fully grasp it now )
I held the opposing point of view of the CC on the issues of the day.

In other words, I was probably not even a christian by anyone's standards and definitely not a catholic, so I walked away from catechism and catholicism (much to my classmates' and teachers shock).

Sorry if this is long and boring.

Not long and boring at all. How could it be, your story is very similar to mine. Except I came back to Catholicism in the end.

In the end, it is Catholicism which answers all my questions.

Sincerely,

De Maria