A suggestion for Christians

[OnceConvinced]

One of the topics we often discuss here is what makes a true Christian and what assures salvation and thus eternal life in Heaven? The big problem is we get many different people coming through here claiming to have the truth and correct understanding of scripture. However many of these people contradict each other. This is not at all helpful and I'm sure you agree that if one gets it wrong the ramifications are horrendous and many people, like I have, could spend their lives genuinely following what they believed to be Christ and correct doctrine, but find they were never true Christians to begin with because of their ignorance.

I'd like to suggest all the Christians get together in the Holy Huddle room to remedy this problem.

First of all, using holy spirit discernment, weed out all those who aren't true Christians and with those of you left, nut out together what it takes to consider yourself a true Christian.

You all being true Christians and having the holy spirit within you, I would invisage no problem with accomplishing this task. You can then come back to us as a group with your final list of conditions to consider one a true Christian and worthy of eternal life; worshiping God for all eternity, thus ensuring that we lost and sinful folk have accurate information that we can accept or reject Christ by.

Also while you are at it, for those who completely reject the bible, perhaps you could also come to a unified agreement on what Hell actually is. Is it eternal suffering, death by fire or simply the grave? I'm sure with the understanding given to you by the holy spirit, this should be an easy question for you true Christians to answer and would leave us with little doubt what we are in for if we continue on our evil and abominable ways.

If any other people have any topics they'd like sorted out perhaps they can post them on this thread? I'm sure that the holy spirit will be able to deal with them all quickly and efficiently. Maybe at last we can find out what the real truth is and what the bible really is saying to us?

I look forward to our Christian members here showing the sort of unity Paul so desired amongst the believers. I'm sure you will be eager to assist God in spreading the truth to the rest of us here and the many thousands who come into this site and read.

......................


So now having read this OP do you agree that with the Holy spirit, this venture should be easily undertaken?

If not, why not?

And if Christians cannot come to a consensus amongst themselves, using the holy spirit to gain understanding, how can any unbelievers take the bible or Christians seriously? ](*,)

[Jester]

Okay, here as promised.

As Christians, we've actually been holding that session for nearly two millenia now. So far, not so much agreement. (We're all there thinking "if only those darn think-they're-christians would leave so that only those of us who really have the spirit can vote").

To be honest, I actually have a similar issue with many non-theists. There are those (not naming any names, other than to say that you are NOT one of them) who loudly insist that there is no Christianity outside their particular view of it. Just in case I don't get it the first time, they're more than happy to write it again with lots of capitols and exclamation points to make sure that I understand.

My only real world solution works well enough with the long-term people. That is, you eventually get to know basically what a particular person's position is, and you debate with one another on those terms. With newbies (I hate the term "noob"), I'll agree that this isn't really possible. I suppose each session would have to start with some questions.

Personally, I'm more than happy to make it clear that I don't agree with certain Christians about some major issues. Like anyone else, I believe that my understanding of Christianity is close to the truth, but do admit (intellectually, if not on a deeper level) that I'm probably wrong about quite a bit.

Okay, getting to what is probably you're bigger issue. If we all have the spirit, why can't we agree on anything? Putting aside the obvious answer of, "we don't all have it" (and I don't claim to know who does - but like to think that I do), I really don't think that would help. The spirit is supposed to tell us what do to and how to live, not who's right - and who's wrong in a debate sense. To that end, it's no more useful than you're God-glasses. But, you already know that last.

[Ben Masada]

One of the topics we often discuss here is what makes a true Christian and what assures salvation and thus eternal life in Heaven?

Ben: 1 - What then in your opinion makes a true Christian? Salvation from what? Do you have any idea of eternal life? What's your idea of Heaven?

The big problem is we get many different people coming through here claiming to have the truth and correct understanding of scripture.

Ben: What is the Truth? Do you have a definition of your own?

Many people, like I have, could spend their lives genuinely following what they believed to be Christ and correct doctrine.

Ben: What in your views is Christ and the correct doctrine?.

...worshiping God for all eternity, thus ensuring that we lost and sinful folk have accurate information that we can accept or reject Christ by.

Ben: What do you mean by "lost and sinful folk?" What have we lost?

what Hell actually is. Is it eternal suffering, death by fire or simply the grave?

Ben: In my opinion, Hell is simply the grave. That's what in Hebrew means "Sheol"
or the grave. Don't you think this thinking makes Christian life a little better?

Maybe at last we can find out what the real truth is and what the bible really is saying to us?

Ben: I think that the only way to find that out is by studying the Scriptures, or by
seeking intructions from the Jews. Isn't it what Isaiah says in 2:2,3? If we want instruction in the Word of God, the address is Zion, the Jewish People. What do you say to this?

I look forward to our Christian members here showing the sort of unity Paul so desired amongst the believers. I'm sure you will be eager to assist God in spreading the truth to the rest of us here and the many thousands who come into this site and read.

Ben: Is it true that Paul was the founder of Christianity? Regarding assisting God, I believe He doesn't need our assistence. We need to assist each other in the spreading of the Truth. But first and foremost, we need to know what the Truth is. Perhaps we don't have the Truth we think we do. The best way to verify is to submit to the test in Isaiah 8:20. "The Law and the Testimony; if we don't speak according to that formula, it's because the light is not with us."

Ben:

[Amos]

One of the topics we often discuss here is what makes a true Christian and what assures salvation and thus eternal life in Heaven? The big problem is we get many different people coming through here claiming to have the truth and correct understanding of scripture. However many of these people contradict each other. This is not at all helpful and I'm sure you agree that if one gets it wrong the ramifications are horrendous and many people, like I have, could spend their lives genuinely following what they believed to be Christ and correct doctrine, but find they were never true Christians to begin with because of their ignorance.

I'd like to suggest all the Christians get together in the Holy Huddle room to remedy this problem.

First of all, using holy spirit discernment, weed out all those who aren't true Christians and with those of you left, nut out together what it takes to consider yourself a true Christian.

You all being true Christians and having the holy spirit within you, I would invisage no problem with accomplishing this task. You can then come back to us as a group with your final list of conditions to consider one a true Christian and worthy of eternal life; worshiping God for all eternity, thus ensuring that we lost and sinful folk have accurate information that we can accept or reject Christ by.

Also while you are at it, for those who completely reject the bible, perhaps you could also come to a unified agreement on what Hell actually is. Is it eternal suffering, death by fire or simply the grave? I'm sure with the understanding given to you by the holy spirit, this should be an easy question for you true Christians to answer and would leave us with little doubt what we are in for if we continue on our evil and abominable ways.

If any other people have any topics they'd like sorted out perhaps they can post them on this thread? I'm sure that the holy spirit will be able to deal with them all quickly and efficiently. Maybe at last we can find out what the real truth is and what the bible really is saying to us?

I look forward to our Christian members here showing the sort of unity Paul so desired amongst the believers. I'm sure you will be eager to assist God in spreading the truth to the rest of us here and the many thousands who come into this site and read.

......................


So now having read this OP do you agree that with the Holy spirit, this venture should be easily undertaken?

If not, why not?

And if Christians cannot come to a consensus amongst themselves, using the holy spirit to gain understanding, how can any unbelievers take the bible or Christians seriously? ](*,)

You have hit the nail on the head. If Christians are being led by the Holy Spirit, they should have no problem whatsoever in ironing out all of their differences. There should be complete harmony if they are all being led by the Spirit of God. It is ridiculous to believe, for example, that God would teach one group that salvation is by faith alone, another group that salvation is by works alone, another group that it is through a combination of the two and still another group that it is through neither. If all of these groups are being led by God’s Spirit, is God confused or schizophrenic or what?

Your last sentence goes to the very heart of what Jesus prayed about in John 17:20-23. He prayed that all who would believe in Him through the apostles’ word would be one so that the world would believe the Father had sent Him. Your conclusions are well-reasoned and rock-solid.

What is interesting to me is the way “Spirit-filled Christians� deal (or rather don’t deal) with the contradictions that exist among all the denominations, either ignoring them or dismissing them as unimportant, making the claim that we can’t all understand the bible alike.

They believe they are indwelled by the Spirit of God because the Scriptures tell them so. (Nobody would even know there were such a thing as the Holy Spirit were it not for what the Scriptures reveal about Him.) Then they refuse to believe what the Scriptures say about the Scriptures:
• That they contain all truth (John 16:13, 1 Thessalonians 2:13, John 17:17)
• That we can understand them if we will study them (John 8:32, Ephesians 3:3-4, Ephesians 5:17, 2 Timothy 2:15, 1 Timothy 4:13, 16,)
• That in them are revealed all things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3)
• That they make us wise for salvation and are profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness that we may be complete thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:15-17)
• That we are not all entitled to our own interpretation of them, but that we must instead figure out what God intended for them to say to us (2 Peter 3:16, 2 John 9-11, 1 Timothy 1:3, 1 Timothy 4:1-3, 2 Timothy 4:1-4, 1 Timothy 6:20-21, 1 John 4:1, 2 Peter 2:1-2, Matthew 7:15, Acts 20:28-31)
To me, this is a huge inconsistency.

I believe there is a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of the indwelling of the Spirit of God in the Christian. Obviously, the bible teaches we are indwelled by the Spirit of God (Romans 8:11). We are also taught that God the Father indwells us (1 John 4:15) and that Jesus indwells us (John 14:20). If they dwell in us in a literal sense, are we not then the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9)? If we literally have the persons of the Father, Son and Spirit dwelling in us, how could we ever sin (1 John 1:5-10)? How could we ever disagree (1 Corinthians 1:10)? Why would we be instructed to study (2 Timothy 2:15) or to beware lest we have an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God (Hebrews 3:12)?

We are taught in Ephesians 3:17 that Christ doesn’t literally dwell in us personally, but that He dwells in our hearts by faith. I believe the same is true of God the Father and of His Spirit.

Notice Ephesians 5:18-19 and Colossians 3:16, which are parallel passages. In Ephesians we are told to “be filled with the Spirit.� How do we fulfill that command? Paul explains it in Colossians where he says, “let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom.� As we study God’s word and let it direct our lives, we are filled with the Spirit, we are led by the Spirit, and the Father and Son dwell in us by faith.

[OnceConvinced]

Ben: 1 - What then in your opinion makes a true Christian? Salvation from what? Do you have any idea of eternal life? What's your idea of Heaven?

The topic here is not what I think but what God thinks. Me, I was never a true Christian to begin with so any beliefs I have have now have been manipulated by the devil.

Ben: What is the Truth? Do you have a definition of your own?

Any idea of the truth I have will have been warped by Satan. I'm not the one to ask. That is why I am asking those who have the Holy spirit within them, those are the only people who can possibly understand the truth of the bible.

Ben: What in your views is Christ and the correct doctrine?.

I have come to realise there is no way to tell what is correct doctrine. However apparantly spirit filled Christians claim they do know, so if that's the case I'm sure they can come up with a general consensus on that. Perhaps we could add your request to the list of things they can discuss? What is correct doctrine and what is false doctrine. Sounds good to me.

Ben: What do you mean by "lost and sinful folk?" What have we lost?

We are the ones who are destined to be tortured in Hell for all eternity. The ones who are going to die in our sin without accepting Christ as our savior.

Ben: In my opinion, Hell is simply the grave. That's what in Hebrew means "Sheol"
or the grave. Don't you think this thinking makes Christian life a little better?

I personally agree with you, it makes a lot more sense. But I think with your view, you may find yourself being weeded out as one of the true Christians and branded a heretic.

Ben: I think that the only way to find that out is by studying the Scriptures, or by
seeking intructions from the Jews. Isn't it what Isaiah says in 2:2,3? If we want instruction in the Word of God, the address is Zion, the Jewish People. What do you say to this?

I say you may have a point. Perhaps you should be the one who takes a leadership role and gather all the Christians together and convince them that they are decieved and not following God at all? I think they would definitely benefit from Jewish input especially when it comes to studying the Hebrew texts. :2gun:

[Ben Masada]

The topic here is not what I think but what God thinks. Me, I was never a true Christian to begin with so any beliefs I have have now have been manipulated by the devil.

Ben: How do you know what God thinks? How can the Devil manipulate one's beliefs? Isn't the Devil only a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man?

Any idea of the truth I have will have been warped by Satan. I'm not the one to ask. That is why I am asking those who have the Holy spirit within them, those are the only people who can possibly understand the truth of the bible.

Ben: If the Bible was written by the Jewish People, how can Christians know the truth of the Bible if they don't get instructed by the authors of the Bible?

I have come to realise there is no way to tell what is correct doctrine. However apparantly spirit filled Christians claim they do know, so if that's the case I'm sure they can come up with a general consensus on that. Perhaps we could add your request to the list of things they can discuss? What is correct doctrine and what is false doctrine. Sounds good to me.

Ben: Do you agree that Jesus had the right idea about the correct doctrine? I believe you do. In Matthew 5:17-19 we have that Jesus came to confirm Judaism to the letter. Isn't it obvious to you that Judaism is the correct doctrine?

We are the ones who are destined to be tortured in Hell for all eternity. The ones who are going to die in our sin without accepting Christ as our savior.

Ben: Do you really believe in Hell for all eternity? Don't you think that the fear of Hell only makes faith conditional? And do you really believe that one can be condemned to Hell for not accepting Christ as his savior? How about the Jewish People and all non-Christian peoples?

I personally agree with you, it makes a lot more sense. But I think with your view, you may find yourself being weeded out as one of the true Christians and branded a heretic.

Ben: I could never be a heretic. To be a Christian heretic, one must be a Christian first, and I am not a Christian.

I say you may have a point. Perhaps you should be the one who takes a leadership role and gather all the Christians together and convince them that they are decieved and not following God at all? I think they would definitely benefit from Jewish input especially when it comes to studying the Hebrew texts.

Ben: How about starting with you? Let me tell what the Truth is. Once Jesus was asked about the Truth and he said that the Truth is the Word of God. And according
to Psalm 147:19.20, the Word of God was given to Israel only and to no other people on earth. If the Truth is the Word of God which was entrusted to the Jews, isn't the obvious conclusion that the Jews are the ones with the Truth? Then, if you
check Psalm 119:105, the Psalmist compares the Word of God with light in the path
of men. And Isaiah 42:6 says that Israel was given as light unto the nations. Could
we say that the Jewish People is the Word of God in flesh? Then, last but not least,
Jesus, in his Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews, said the following: "You are
the light of the world." (Mat. 5:14-16) If the Truth is compared to light and the Jews
are the light of the world, what is the obvious conclusion?

Good luck!
Ben

[OnceConvinced]

Ben: How do you know what God thinks? How can the Devil manipulate one's beliefs? Isn't the Devil only a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man?

I wouldn't have a clue. Perhaps we could also add these to the list of questions for the Christian panel to answer using the Holy spirit as their guide?

Ben: If the Bible was written by the Jewish People, how can Christians know the truth of the Bible if they don't get instructed by the authors of the Bible?

According to those being guided by the holy spirit, they know better than the actual authors about the truth they were trying to portray. I guess holy spirit understanding is considered more reliable than reality.

Ben: Do you agree that Jesus had the right idea about the correct doctrine? I believe you do. In Matthew 5:17-19 we have that Jesus came to confirm Judaism to the letter. Isn't it obvious to you that Judaism is the correct doctrine?

Nothing is obvious to me any more. I see too many conflicting opinions and none can be proven to be accurate. I will admit that I believe the Jews are closer to the truth than Christians when it comes to the Hebrew texts. After all, as you said, they wrote those texts, so they should know better than anyone what it's going on about.

Ben: Do you really believe in Hell for all eternity? Don't you think that the fear of Hell only makes faith conditional? And do you really believe that one can be condemned to Hell for not accepting Christ as his savior? How about the Jewish People and all non-Christian peoples?

I agree completely. I don't believe Hell to be eternal and I have argued this on many ocassions. I go along with the Jews on this one.

Ben: How about starting with you? Let me tell what the Truth is. Once Jesus was asked about the Truth and he said that the Truth is the Word of God. And according
to Psalm 147:19.20, the Word of God was given to Israel only and to no other people on earth. If the Truth is the Word of God which was entrusted to the Jews, isn't the obvious conclusion that the Jews are the ones with the Truth? Then, if you
check Psalm 119:105, the Psalmist compares the Word of God with light in the path
of men. And Isaiah 42:6 says that Israel was given as light unto the nations. Could
we say that the Jewish People is the Word of God in flesh? Then, last but not least,
Jesus, in his Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews, said the following: "You are
the light of the world." (Mat. 5:14-16) If the Truth is compared to light and the Jews
are the light of the world, what is the obvious conclusion?

Good luck!
Ben

I don't claim to have the truth. I realised a few years ago when I became an ex-Christian that I didn't. And no Christian can. Which is the point of this thread. There is no way anyone can claim to have absolute truth, even if they have the supposed Holy spirit. We can see that even those who claim to have the Holy spirit cannot agree, which is why nobody will take me up on my challenge here. Deep down I believe every Christian knows that there is no way to determine who is correct when it comes to many of Christianity's doctrines. What makes a true Christian? What is Hell? Nobody can agree, which is why Christianity will never be able to come to a consensus on it.

Although I have gained more respect for the Jewish perspective over the last few years, there is still no way to determine the truth of the bible. Even Jews have differing perspectives on it. Even you cannot claim to know exactly what the writers were thinking when they wrote the Hebrew texts.

I agree that Jewish input is necessary when it comes to determining the truth of the bible, however I doubt you'll get the Christians agreeing to listen to you when you have rejected Christ and supposedly do not have the holy spirit dwelling within you.

[madhorseman]

Once convinced

Hello again.

One of the topics we often discuss here is what makes a true Christian and what assures salvation and thus eternal life in Heaven? The big problem is we get many different people coming through here claiming to have the truth and correct understanding of scripture. However many of these people contradict each other.

Well, first of all we don’t look at other people who claim to be Christians to determine truth nor can we tell by appearance one is saved.

Perfect example is the parable of wheat and tare. Or the ten virgins 5 wise and 5 foolish. And that is exactly what the problem were during the church age. Many gave the appearance of being a Christians but how can we know who were truly saved the wheat / wise to those who were not saved typified as tares and foolish? It was very hard and unwise to determine anything by the appearance. And what if the pastor is not saved? That will be blind leading the blind. And that is why the Bible sets forth rules and requirements concerning the church office as Priests / Pastors, deacons and bishops.

Pastor / Priest had to be married with children. They can not be divorced and the Bible do not allow divorce either. Women do not qualify, no exceptions and they were not to have authority over men etc. These are one of the plain evidence of the falling away.

2Th2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Not only the bible has rules and requirements concerning the pastors and Priest, but the Bible has what it calls sound doctrine. One of which is the doctrine of salvation / grace. The Bible speaks of one salvation plan all through time which is through grace. Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD and likewise people today are saved through grace. And grace is not of works. We can not do anything to earn salvation nor can we do or say anything to merit salvation. This is what the congregational Israel failed to realize and likewise the churches of our day. Today, every single church is embedded with work gospel called freewill doctrine. Thus evidence of falling away and apostasy is obvious. And the worst part is those within the churches can not endure sound doctrine.

2Tim4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

And the man of sin written about in 2Th2:3 namely Satan is revealed in the churches. Satan comes with false gospel as freewill doctrine and signs and wonders. Speaking in tongues / falling backwards are Satanic activities and its taking place in global scale.

And because man of sin, namely Satan, king of Babylon, the dragon with seven heads and ten horn, the abomination and desolation is revealed in the churches. God commands his people to depart from the churches.

The command today is one must depart from the churches Rve18:4 and Mat 24:15. Those who are not responding to the command to depart are giving evidence they are not saved. Rev 13:8. And if one has no “love of truth� as sound doctrines that will be another clear evidence that they are not saved.

This is not at all helpful and I'm sure you agree that if one gets it wrong the ramifications are horrendous and many people, like I have, could spend their lives genuinely following what they believed to be Christ and correct doctrine, but find they were never true Christians to begin with because of their ignorance.

Well, that is what I was telling you about May 21 2011. Because, they never paid attention to the bible and the command to depart from the churches most will be left behind the rapture. Today, we have about 2 billion people which are still part of the churches which will be left behind.

I'd like to suggest all the Christians get together in the Holy Huddle room to remedy this problem.

Not a bad idea but that will never happen and its way too late.

First of all, using holy spirit discernment, weed out all those who aren't true Christians and with those of you left, nut out together what it takes to consider yourself a true Christian.

I just said above, 2 billion which claims to be Christians are not Christians. The only truth we can trust is the Bible.

And if Christians cannot come to a consensus amongst themselves, using the holy spirit to gain understanding, how can any unbelievers take the bible or Christians seriously?

I understand and you have a very good point. However, Christians in the churches have no love of truth. And they get along just fine with each other because the bible and sound doctrines are never in view.

God bless and take care.

[OnceConvinced]

Once convinced

Hello again.

And hello to you. Thanks for coming to the thread. I enjoy debating with someone who remains civil.

One of the topics we often discuss here is what makes a true Christian and what assures salvation and thus eternal life in Heaven? The big problem is we get many different people coming through here claiming to have the truth and correct understanding of scripture. However many of these people contradict each other.

Well, first of all we don’t look at other people who claim to be Christians to determine truth nor can we tell by appearance one is saved.

You as a Christian may be all right and may not have to, but what about us unbelievers who do not have the ability to understand the bible?

As for your other claims here, who can give us the answers? To become a true Christian we must have accurate information, but we can't be relied upon to read the bible ourselves, because we supposedly don't have holy spirit understanding. So therefore it falls on the Christians to do this for us. AFter all, it is them that claim to have the truth. So they need to impart this truth so that we can then know the truth so that we can then have correct information to make an informed decision. Only from there can we have any hope of being able to find the truth from scripture.

If Christians cannot come to an agreement on what it takes to be a true Christian, then why should we take any of you seriously when you claim to have the correct answers?

Before you start quoting scriptures and declaring your interpretations of them, you must first show that your interpretations are correct by having other true Christians agree with you. That is the reason for this thread. We unbelievers need a consensus. If we can't do that, then how can you expect us to take you, one individual seriously?

Preaching is not enough. Show us the unity that all Christians should have in Christ.

I'd like to suggest all the Christians get together in the Holy Huddle room to remedy this problem.

Not a bad idea but that will never happen and its way too late.

Why is it too late? You still have three years. With the holy spirit guiding you, three years should be no problem to come up with unified answers. How can we take any individual Christian seriously when no other Christians are willing to back that individual up?

First of all, using holy spirit discernment, weed out all those who aren't true Christians and with those of you left, nut out together what it takes to consider yourself a true Christian.

I just said above, 2 billion which claims to be Christians are not Christians. The only truth we can trust is the Bible.

then trust the bible. Trust the holy spirit that it will be able to bring the real Christians to unity on this. Or do you lack faith in your God? Perhaps you do.

Seems to me you are admitting that the holy spirit is ineffective and that no Christian can really know the truth. No one can determine what makes a true Christian.

Every Christian believes they get their truth from the bible. So what's the problem? Put your money where your mouth is.

And if Christians cannot come to a consensus amongst themselves, using the holy spirit to gain understanding, how can any unbelievers take the bible or Christians seriously?

I understand and you have a very good point. However, Christians in the churches have no love of truth. And they get along just fine with each other because the bible and sound doctrines are never in view.

And why should you be considered any different to them? Why should we believe you are anything special? You talk just like many of these people you condemn, claiming to have the truth and that those who disagree with your version of the truth are not true Christians. Do you realise that your assertions are meaningless? Until Christians can show unity about what the truth is, they will achieve nothing here on this site by preaching. There are just too many conflicting views on what the bible is saying. How is one unbeliever supposed to be able to filter out the crap? The only way that will work is if they can get a unified response from the real Christians. Talk is cheap. Let's see some action. Let's see some proof that God does guide and that the holy spirit does work.

[tlong]

One of the topics we often discuss here is what makes a true Christian and what assures salvation and thus eternal life in Heaven? The big problem is we get many different people coming through here claiming to have the truth and correct understanding of scripture. However many of these people contradict each other. This is not at all helpful and I'm sure you agree that if one gets it wrong the ramifications are horrendous and many people, like I have, could spend their lives genuinely following what they believed to be Christ and correct doctrine, but find they were never true Christians to begin with because of their ignorance.

I'd like to suggest all the Christians get together in the Holy Huddle room to remedy this problem.

First of all, using holy spirit discernment, weed out all those who aren't true Christians and with those of you left, nut out together what it takes to consider yourself a true Christian.

You all being true Christians and having the holy spirit within you, I would invisage no problem with accomplishing this task. You can then come back to us as a group with your final list of conditions to consider one a true Christian and worthy of eternal life; worshiping God for all eternity, thus ensuring that we lost and sinful folk have accurate information that we can accept or reject Christ by.

Also while you are at it, for those who completely reject the bible, perhaps you could also come to a unified agreement on what Hell actually is. Is it eternal suffering, death by fire or simply the grave? I'm sure with the understanding given to you by the holy spirit, this should be an easy question for you true Christians to answer and would leave us with little doubt what we are in for if we continue on our evil and abominable ways.

If any other people have any topics they'd like sorted out perhaps they can post them on this thread? I'm sure that the holy spirit will be able to deal with them all quickly and efficiently. Maybe at last we can find out what the real truth is and what the bible really is saying to us?

I look forward to our Christian members here showing the sort of unity Paul so desired amongst the believers. I'm sure you will be eager to assist God in spreading the truth to the rest of us here and the many thousands who come into this site and read.

......................


So now having read this OP do you agree that with the Holy spirit, this venture should be easily undertaken?

If not, why not?

And if Christians cannot come to a consensus amongst themselves, using the holy spirit to gain understanding, how can any unbelievers take the bible or Christians seriously? ](*,)

With the arrogant and condescending attitude that you have expressed through out your post, I doubt anything can be said or done to help you understand the scriptures. Obviously by Jesus' teachings there are going to be false teachers and people who think they are going to heaven but be lost. The scriptures can be understood, You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

Do you have a real topic to debate or are you just interested in going on these senseless rants?