The topic for discussion is: What exactly are the "qualifications" for hell?
How bad do you have to be during your lifetime?
There seem to be many interpretations of the word "hell", and though there's usually a common viewpoint of the place being "evil", or "bad", how bad do you necessarily have to be?
Do you have to be a believer? Must you have faith and repent your sins?
And what exactly happens in hell anyway? Apparently, you're to be tortured, but how so? How does it work?
edit: I just realized that this topic should be in Theory, Doctrine, and Dogma
Mods, please move .
What i understood after reading the Bible is that only one Sin is unforgivable, and that is denying God (in Christianity that is).
So i guess as long as you not been an atheist, all you have to do is to accept Jesus Christ and you get a enter Heaven card. The rest of us are doomed, as we can not be forgiven (according to the Bible) whatever we may say.
Atleast, i have no doubt Christians will say we can be forgiven (?) even when stated in the Bible we cant. I suspect this is included because more or less everyone believed in one god or another because of the ignorance of the time, and saying something like your responsible for your life, not a god, was to much to bare (personal suspicion).
T: ´I do not believe in gravity, it´s just a theory.´
It would appear, from what I have heard and read of Christian beliefs, that faith requires only “acceptance of Christ as savior” (though "request for forgiveness of sins" is sometimes mentioned.
Evidently, a "deathbed conversion" and "asking forgiveness" qualifies one for "heaven". Whereas, a lifetime of dedication to doing right by everyone and the environment is of no value when the gods make the “heaven or hell determination”. If the individual has not "accepted Christ", they are supposedly subjected to eternal torture for not worshiping correctly for a few years on Earth (and not making a last second conversion).
This seems like very naïve and irrational criteria to be selected by a supposedly "omniscient, omnipotent and perfect" being. It sounds instead like an egomaniacal statement by self-appointed "representatives of gods".
Perhaps that accounts for much of the naivety presented in defense of Christianity.
.
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
To understand salvation in the Bible you have to understand Justification.
JUSTIFICATION
Justification: "1: the act, process, or state of being justified by God; 2. the act or an instance of justifying." (Webster 628)
Justification: "To justify or make just, by which sanctification is included under justification; to set right; correct a wrong thing done; to deem right or approve. Justification is, in Pauline language, synonymous with reconciliation. God is not imputing to men their trespasses, but declaring them righteous. The means (of justification) is the vicarious expiatory death of Jesus Christ. The sole condition is faith ... in Jesus Christ." (Hastings 510)
Justification: "To prove or show to be just; to vindicate as right; to declare free from guilt or blame; to absolve, to clear; to pardon or clear from guilt; to acquit; declare righteous; pronounce sentence of acceptance." (Conner 269) Conner goes on to quote J.R. Gregory ("The Theological Student"), who defines justification as, 'That act of God by which He accepts as righteous the penitent sinner who believes on Christ for salvation."
With the above definitions and quotes as our starting point, we can now delve into one of the most dynamic and unselfish works in the history of creation - the work of Jesus Christ, who became our righteousness because we had none of our own. Author Kevin Conner explains it this way:
"When Adam sinned, all that he was and all that he did was 'imputed' to the whole, unborn human race. Sin left a debit on the books (Genesis 3:1-16; 2:17; Romans 5:12; 6:23). In Adam all sinned, and all died, spiritually and physically (I Corinthians 15:22). When Christ died on Calvary, the sin of Adam and the whole human race was 'imputed,' or put to Christs' account. And because God imputed our sin to Christ, He suffered our penalty, which was death. All our liabilities were transferred to Him....(and) Christ's righteousness was 'imputed' to us. His righteousness is credited to us, put to our account (Psalm 32:8; Romans 4:8). Justification pronounces the sinner legally innocent, freeing him from condemnation." (Conner 272)
Romans chapters 3-4 contain the magnificent statements of justification for those who place their faith in Jesus Christ. Romans 3:21-22 states:
"But now a righteousness from God, apart from (observing) the
law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets
testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in
Jesus Christ to all who believe."
A few sentences later, Paul declares, "For we maintain that a man is justified (righteous in the eyes of God) by faith apart from observing the law." (Romans 3:28)
In Systematic Theology, Wayne Grudem makes the point that, "the word 'justify' in the Bible indicates that justification is a legal declaration by God. Paul says, "Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies; who is to condemn?" (Romans 8:33-34). Grudem continues, "In God's legal declaration of justification, He specifically declares that we are just in His sight. This (legal) declaration involves two aspects. First, it means that we have no penalty to pay for sin, including past, present, and future sins. The second part of justification is that God must declare us not to be merely natural in His sight but actually to be righteous in His sight. In fact, He must declare us to have the merits of perfect righteousness before Him." (Grudem 724-25)
When considering the implications of legal declarations, we have to acknowledge that there is a substantial body of judicial law which was given to us by God. I'm speaking, of course, not only of the Ten Commandments, which comprises the moral law, but also the civil, dietary, and ceremonial laws of the Old Testament. This 'weighty' and seemingly inflexible array of commandments can surely be viewed as a burdensome yoke of oppression for humanity. In Old and even New Testament times, man often considered his salvation as being inexorably linked to his 'keeping' of the law. To the degree that he kept the Lord's rules and regulations, that was the degree to which he calculated his chances of salvation. Yet the keeping of the law was and is an exercise in futility. In Galatians 3:10-11, Paul addresses this contentious issue:
"All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is
written: 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do every-
thing written in the Book of the Law.' Clearly, no one is justified
before God by the law, because, 'The righteous will live by
faith."
The law was powerless to justify anyone righteous in the eyes of God for the simple reason that no mortal human was able to keep the law.
"There is no one righteous, not even one...no one who seeks God.
There is no one who does good, not even one." (Romans 3:10-11)
"I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he
is obligated to obey the whole law." (Galatians 5:3)
One might sweat out an entire lifetime trying to keep only one of God's laws, much less all of them. No, keeping the law was not the way to justification. The law had four major purposes:
1. It shows us the moral character of God
2. It serves as a tutor to lead us to Christ, by defining what sin is.
3. It is a guide for Christian living.
4. Knowing the law can keep us from suffering the adverse consequences of sin.
SELF- JUSTIFICATION IN SCRIPTURE
It seems clear from scripture that there are only two possible sources of obtaining justification (righteousness): from one's own self, or from an outside source. Mark chapter 10 gives us an illustration of one man's attempt to justify himself before God (before Jesus). A rich young man is asking Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life. In verse 18 Jesus responded by stating, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone." Jesus goes on to list a number of the Ten Commandments as the standard by which the young man must measure his actions. The young man remarked, "Teacher, all these I have kept since I was a boy." To which Jesus then said, "One thing you lack. God, sell everything you have and give it to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." The story ends when the young man's face fell and he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
There are a number of lessons in this story. One of these was that the young man was trying to justify himself before Jesus by indicating he was "keeping the law," when in reality he was in violation of the commandment not to make for one's self any idols. Money was the young man's idol, and thus he had already broken the law. Perhaps some other young man might have listened to Jesus reciting the commandments and come to realize that not only could he not keep them in the future, but he had already broken many of them in the past. The conversation might well have then taken a different turn. He might have said something like, "Teacher, I confess that I have not kept the whole law, and I guess I need to be truthful and tell you that I don't think I can keep it in the future either. What then can I do?" I'm fairly sure that Jesus would have told him to believe in Him, and then he will receive eternal life. One other note: later in the story of the rich young man Jesus noted that, "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." When the disciples asked, "Who then can be saved?" Jesus responded by saying, "With man this is impossible, but not with God. With God, all things are possible" (v. 27). The crux of the message was that it is impossible for a rich man to justify himself, especially when he is engaging in idol worship. Though man might possess great wealth, and achieve tremendous influence in the worldly system, he still has two major problems: one, he still is unable to keep the law; and two, he is completely helpless in justifying himself before God - he needs divine assistance. Only God can justify a person righteous. And it's not by the works of man that this is achieved, but by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9).
Another thing is that there is one passage (the only one I know of) which places salvation, works, and rewards in their proper perspective.
"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." I Corinthians 3:11-15
The Full Life Study Bible provides these remarks on the above passage:
"HE WILL SUFFER LOSS: There is a future judgment for believers (I John 4:17) as to the degree of their faithfulness to God and the grace given to them during this life on earth (v.10; 4:2-5; 2 Cor.5:10). In that judgment there is the possibility that a believer, although receiving salvation, may experience great loss (Greek zemloo, meaning 'to suffer loss or damage'). The careless believer is in danger of suffering loss or damage in the following ways: (1) a feeling of shame at Christ's coming (2 Ti. 2:15; 1 John 2:28); (2) loss of his or her life's work for God (vv. 12-15); (3) loss of glory and honor before God (cf. Romans 2:7); (4) loss of opportunity for service and authority in heaven (Mt. 25:14-30); (5) a low position in heaven (Mt. 25:14-30); (6) loss of rewards (cf. v. 14-15); and (7) repayment for the wrong done to others (Col. 3:24-25).
AS ONE ESCAPING THROUGH THE FLAMES: 'Escaping through the flames' is probably an expression meaning 'barely saved.' God will evaluate the quality of life, influence, teaching, and work in the life of each person. If his work is judged unworthy, he will lose his (heavenly) reward, yet he himself will be saved." ( Full Life 1755-56)
Godly works do not result in justification / salvation, but are directed towards the edification and salvation of others and the glory of God, and eventually result in some type of heavenly rewards. For those who may have been saved just prior to death (the thief on the cross), there may not be any works to reward, yet their salvation is yet assured. It is my contention that once a person is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9), eventually, if they live long enough, there should be some sort of Godly works in their life (Ephesians 2:10, James chapter 2), which are helped to fruition by the Holy Spirit.
The proper salvation equation is: Faith in Christ = justification / salvation. Then this leads to works. Some want to make it to be: Faith + works = salvation. They don't know how many works or what kind are involved. But if they want to include works then they need to make sure they include this one from Jesus:
John 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
Of course, once they "believe" then they're justified by faith.
Easyrider wrote:Justification: "1: the act, process, or state of being justified by God; 2. the act or an instance of justifying." (Webster 628)
That far is excellent. After that point the "argument" degenerates to quoting scripture or apologists citing scripture.
If you want to discuss what the Bible has to say then the Bible is relevant. Otherwise go read some cold fusion papers.
Whether or not one believes everything in the Bible is myth or true, in no way can it or will it ever be irrelevant.
Dubtribe Soundsystem from San Francisco:
HONOR each other... ONE LOVE, ONE BOND, between all people, no matter what your COLOR, no matter what your RACE, your CREED, your CULTURE, your PREFERENCE, your PRIDE, RISE, and come together with ONE LOVE
Easyrider wrote:Justification: "1: the act, process, or state of being justified by God; 2. the act or an instance of justifying." (Webster 628)
That far is excellent. After that point the "argument" degenerates to quoting scripture or apologists citing scripture.
Is there anything that can be shown to be real -- independent, impartial, etc?????
"Biblo-babble" (not my term) is not convincing to those who regard the bible as unreliable (or worse).
look zzyx......you will be talking to some Christians here. we will quote the Bible. do you really expect us NOT to? you want something real you say.....the bible is real (guess not real enough for you or something, i dont know)......as for impartial.....impartial according to who? ........when discussing Christianity expect to hear Bible verses. i mean this in a nice way
bryan12 wrote:The topic for discussion is: What exactly are the "qualifications" for hell?
How bad do you have to be during your lifetime?
There seem to be many interpretations of the word "hell", and though there's usually a common viewpoint of the place being "evil", or "bad", how bad do you necessarily have to be?
Do you have to be a believer? Must you have faith and repent your sins?
And what exactly happens in hell anyway? Apparently, you're to be tortured, but how so? How does it work?
edit: I just realized that this topic should be in Theory, Doctrine, and Dogma
Mods, please move .
As near as I can tell, the only qualification is unbelief.
Scrotum wrote:What i understood after reading the Bible is that only one Sin is unforgivable, and that is denying God (in Christianity that is).
So i guess as long as you not been an atheist, all you have to do is to accept Jesus Christ and you get a enter Heaven card. The rest of us are doomed, as we can not be forgiven (according to the Bible) whatever we may say.
The unpardonable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and you cannot be guilty of that unless you die unrepentant. so, as long as you are alive, forgivensss is always an option.
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