Feast of Lady of Guadalupe 12 Dec.

[polonius]

Perhaps the most well known of the alleged Marion miracles in America is that of the Lady of Guadalupe which is dated 1531. There a many celebrations throughout the Americas particularly in Mexico where the vision was said to have occurred.

The story is:

www.britannica.com/topic/Our-Lady-of-Gu ... -of-Mexico

“According to tradition, Mary appeared to Juan Diego, who was an Aztec convert to Christianity, on December 9 and again on December 12, 1531. She requested that a shrine to her be built on the spot where she appeared, Tepeyac Hill (now in a suburb of Mexico City). The bishop demanded a sign before he would approve construction of a church, however. Mary appeared a second time to Juan Diego and ordered him to collect roses. In a second audience with the bishop, Juan Diego opened his cloak, letting dozens of roses fall to the floor and revealing the image of Mary imprinted on the inside of the cloak—the image that is now venerated in the Basilica of Guadalupe.�

While many people have faith in this "miracle," is there historical evidence that it ever occurred?

[polonius]

Answer: From the Encyclopedia Britannica

"The traditional view has been questioned by various scholars and ecclesiastics, including the former abbot of the Basilica of Guadalupe.

The primary objection is that there is no documentary evidence for the apparition until 1648; critics claim that documents purporting to be from the 16th century are actually from the 17th. Critics have also noted that the bishop approached by Juan Diego was not consecrated until 1534, and he makes no mention of Juan Diego or of Our Lady of Guadalupe in his writings.

Defenders of the Virgin of Guadalupe—including Pope John Paul II, who canonized Juan Diego and declared Our Lady of Guadalupe the patroness of the Americas—accept the authenticity of the early documents and point also to various oral accounts of the apparition."

Note: The Juan Diego portion of the legend wasn't published for another 100 years.

How many miracle stories in the Bible and elsewhere are really only legends?

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 2 by polonius]

You can't prove history, to some degree. We all know the end results but the details we have only reports of happening.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 2 by polonius]

You can't prove history, to some degree. We all know the end results but the details we have only reports of happening.

RESPONSE: But you can disprove history.

[marco]

While many people have faith in this "miracle," is there historical evidence that it ever occurred?

Does that matter? We have evidence about Lourdes and Fatima, events that happened more recently but we still doubt. Humanity's need for a mother God is such that a man can see one while still being sane, just as desert travellers can attest to seeing a city with fountains where there is only sand.


It is amusing that Mary was identified from her picture. I wonder how this was done. And this humble shadow of the NT would not have demanded a shrine, since she would know she is due only hyperdulia, not latria. Mary never insinuated herself in dealing with her cold son so it's unlikely she'd say: "Give me....give me" like a demented pop star. She may not have travelled much in life but she has been a veritable globe trotter since. All the same some of her adventures are fascinating: her recent clambering on the Coptic Church in Cairo was seen by thousands and lasted for a very long time.

[JehovahsWitness]

her recent clambering on the Coptic Church in Cairo was seen by thousands and lasted for a very long time.

Are you suggesting people really did see "mary" in Cairo?





NOTE This is not a invitation for insults directed at me (or others), a request that my understanding of written English be questioned or a request for a dissertation in Latin. It is simply a request for clarification as to your concluding sentence. Thank you.

[marco]

her recent clambering on the Coptic Church in Cairo was seen by thousands and lasted for a very long time.

Are you suggesting people really did see "mary" in Cairo?

I am saying they saw something and this in itself is of interest. I have already expressed surprise that people can identify "Mary" since as far as I know none of Christ's miracles involved the use of photography.


Your cautionary note wasn't necessary. Latin dissertations, like Revelations, belong in the past. Insults are not my currency, though what people extract I cannot control. Have a great day.

[JehovahsWitness]

I am saying they saw something and this in itself is of interest. I have already expressed surprise that people can identify "Mary" since as far as I know none of Christ's miracles involved the use of photography.

Yes I would agree. They probably did see "something" which is possibly imho, at the very least an argument that could be used to support the existence of of the supernatural. Of course it could be evidence for mass hysteria, mind or environmental manipulation or any other number of explanations, but the paranormal cannot be dismissed entirely.

JW

[polonius]

While many people have faith in this "miracle," is there historical evidence that it ever occurred?

Does that matter? We have evidence about Lourdes and Fatima, events that happened more recently but we still doubt. Humanity's need for a mother God is such that a man can see one while still being sane, just as desert travellers can attest to seeing a city with fountains where there is only sand.


It is amusing that Mary was identified from her picture. I wonder how this was done. And this humble shadow of the NT would not have demanded a shrine, since she would know she is due only hyperdulia, not latria. Mary never insinuated herself in dealing with her cold son so it's unlikely she'd say: "Give me....give me" like a demented pop star. She may not have travelled much in life but she has been a veritable globe trotter since. All the same some of her adventures are fascinating: her recent clambering on the Coptic Church in Cairo was seen by thousands and lasted for a very long time.

RESPONSE: Have you ever objectively reviewed the evidence in the cases of the "miracles" you cited?

[polonius]

her recent clambering on the Coptic Church in Cairo was seen by thousands and lasted for a very long time.

Are you suggesting people really did see "Mary" in Cairo?





NOTE This is not a invitation for insults directed at me (or others), a request that my understanding of written English be questioned or a request for a dissertation in Latin. It is simply a request for clarification as to your concluding sentence. Thank you.

RESPONSE: Actually it's questioning your understanding and the thoroughness of the material you used . Actually, you are getting a bit off topic.I briefly attended Rutgers University who had a Phd Benedictine on staff of the Department of Physics. He was also quite a historian.

His name was Fr. Stanley Jaki who had published a number of books. One, a rather thick volumn, was titled "God and the Sun at Fatima." His conclusion was that no miracle had occurred.

Perhaps you might report to us of the of the claimed 50,000 people there, how many did not see the Virgin? How many reported that they saw noting at all? Get the drift.[/b]