Scripture and History, the same or different?

[polonius]

I am again introducing a topic which might have reader interest. Or not.

The question being addressed is if history and scripture are compatible. Is what scripture tells us happened really historical true?

Any thoughts?

[polonius]

[steveb1]

[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]

Scripture and history only overlap as, say, do Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson overlap - in the author's imagination - with their contemporary British citizens, places, landmarks and social mores. Biblical narratives do this kind of story-telling regularly.

Scripture hijacks history and puts it to theological use. Nor is this necessarily a bad thing - if, that is, the principle is fully understood, so that believers avoid the sticky trap of proclaiming, once some rare archaeological find seems to support a biblical story, "There! You see? History proves the Bible!" And if, that is, the principal, fully understood, also prevents debunkers from eliminating scripture from serious study because, as they claim, "There! You see? History disproves the Bible!"

Both cases represent an antiquated post-Enlightenment pseudo-rationalism which rests on the untidy premise that all truth, in order to be true, must consist of provable facts. Both parties are odd bedfellows because both adhere to what the late Huston Smith termed "fact-fundamentalism"; whereas the Bible and other such ancient spiritual expressions are immune from such a judgment inasmuch as they are allegoric, parabolic narratives and as such exist beyond the reach of the so-called "rational mind", whether that mind be a religious or a secular fundamentalist.

[marco]

[Divine Insight]

Opinion?

Where did the Jews live before they had been captured and enslaved by the Egyptians?

Did the Egyptians capture the entire Jewish nation leaving no Jews behind?

Why were Canaanites living on land that God had promised to someone else?

What kind of real estate agent is God that he couldn't come up with uninhabited land to offer the Jews as "Promised Land"?

"Here's your promised land. Just go kill all the people who are living on it and it's all yours. Oh, and by the way, Thou shalt not kill!"

Sounds pretty fishy to me.

My opinion? I don't buy it.

[JehovahsWitness]

I am again introducing a topic which might have reader interest. Or not.

The question being addressed is if history and scripture are compatible. Is ?

Any thoughts?
|

My thoughts on the subject are as follows: Yes, I believe what scripture tells us happened is really historically true. I claim this is my belief.



The above is a faith based claim.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[Divine Insight]

The above is a faith based claim.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

I personally have no problem with people who openly confess that their religious beliefs are indeed faith-based.

Where it becomes a problem is when they start arguing that it's basically irrefutable and/or can be verified to be historical fact beyond any reasonable doubt.

Those are the folks who are making unrealistic claims.

Especially if they are also demanding that non-believers are the people who are in denial of the obvious facts. That's exactly the opposite of truth.

But yeah, theists who openly confess that they believe this stuff on faith. I have no problem with them at all.

I personally see no reason to even believe in this religion on faith. In fact, I can't even imagine why anyone would want this religion to be true. Just stop and think about it.

This religion proclaims that all humans are evil sinners who lust for evil and cannot even resist evil if they tried. And for this they are all condemned unless they supposedly confess that this is indeed true and ask Jesus specifically to forgive them for being such evil horrible and hopeless sinners.

My very sincere question any any faith-based believer. Why in the world would you ever want to believe as a matter of faith that you are in such a horrible predicament? Much less believing that you are even somehow to blame for being in it.

I mean, think about it. There are other world religions that do not require such a dismal picture of reality or such a negative and helpless view of ourselves. Why not place our faith in one of those more positive religions if we are going to believe something on faith?

I think these are very reasonable questions to ask. And I haven't seen anyone offer a rational answer to these questions.

The only answer that makes any sense is for the believer to say that they have no choice but to believe in this religion. But that totally blows away the idea that it's a faith-based believe. Now they are claiming that they have no choice but to believe that it's true. That's not believing on faith.

[JehovahsWitness]

The above is a faith based claim.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

I personally have no problem with people who openly confess that their religious beliefs are indeed faith-based.

Thank you, that's a most reasonable and tolerant position.

The OP asked for thoughts so I shared mine.


Regards,

JW

[Divine Insight]

Thank you, that's a most reasonable and tolerant position.

The OP asked for thoughts so I shared mine.


Regards,

JW

I've never had a problem with Jehovah's Witnesses. They stop by my house about twice a year. It's usually someone different each time. But in every case they have always been quite friendly and have always totally respected my position and polite decline to take their materials.

In fact, the last time they came it was an older woman and a quite younger woman. We talked for about 15 minutes. I explained to them why I don't believe in this Abraham religion. We covered a few topics in that brief time. And when we were done they actually said that I made very good points and they can't say that they blame me for drawing the conclusions I've drawn.

The older lady assured me that they didn't come to argue. I assured her that I agree and that I didn't feel that we were arguing. We were simply discussing.

Besides they were the ones who came to my house so I certainly hope they didn't come here to argue.

I don't go to their house trying to convince them of my beliefs.

But, like I say, they were very polite and even agreed that I made good points and that they couldn't blame me for drawing the conclusions I draw.

If that were the way all Christian theists behaved I don't think Christianity would be nearly the problem it is in our society.

As a member of this forum surely you can see that other Christian Theists are far more assertive in demanding that their religious beliefs are beyond question and act like those who don't agree are somehow blind to the facts.

I've never had a Jehovah's Witness accuse me of being blind to any facts.

So for that, I do give them far more respect than these hard-core fundamentalists who preach fire and brimstone acting like all non-believers deserved to be damned due to their refusal to believe in this religion.

Or those who proclaim that you must be among some "non-elect" who have already been rejected by a decent loving God.

Those are the kinds of theists who make Christianity a problem in our society.

[polonius]

My thoughts on the subject are as follows: Yes, I believe what scripture tells us happened is really historically true. I claim this is my belief.



The above is a faith based claim.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

RESPONSE:

Somehow I prefer a fact based claim.

Broadly speaking, there are two categories of views regarding the relationship between faith and rationality:

1. Rationalism holds that truth should be determined by reason and factual analysis, rather than faith, dogma, tradition or religious teaching.

2. Fideism holds that faith is necessary, and that beliefs may be held without any evidence or reason and even in conflict with evidence and reason.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_and_rationality