If you worship Jesus Christ

[Elijah John]

If you worship Jesus Christ, or Jesus and Father Yahweh, what would it take for you to turn your worship and devotion to Yahweh alone?

After all, isn't this what Jesus really taught?

[steveb1]

If you worship Jesus Christ, or Jesus and Father Yahweh, what would it take for you to turn your worship and devotion to Yahweh alone?

After all, isn't this what Jesus really taught?

Seems to be both what Jesus taught, and what the NT authors also taught - worship of the Father in Jesus's name, through Jesus, in Jesus - but never TO Jesus.

Trinitarians and others who claim Godhood for Jesus ransack John's Gospel for "I am" statements and such tidbits in their struggle to prove "Jesus is God" - all the while ignoring John's Jesus's statement in 17:3, "You [Father] are the one true God" and thereby explicitly excluding Jesus from the Godhead.

[Overcomer]

To worship Jesus is to worship Yahweh and vice versa because both are members of the Triune Godhead.

As for John 17:3 which reads, "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent", it does not disprove the Trinity. There IS only one true God and he's Triune and the first person of the Godhead sent the Second Person of the Godhead to earth. That's what that statement means.

Again, I repeat the definition of the Trinity -- one God who exists as three persons, meaning that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are one in essence, but have individual consciousnesses and roles. When you understand the ontology of God rightly, you understand the Trinity.

[William]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

If you worship Jesus Christ, or Jesus and Father Yahweh, what would it take for you to turn your worship and devotion to Yahweh alone?

After all, isn't this what Jesus really taught?

First off, 'What is worship exactly'?

Secondly, 'Why do we suppose Jesus was referring to Yahweh when he spoke of his Father'?

Worship.

The story indicates that people worshiped Jesus. Is worship a type of acknowledgement? Where they acknowledging him as 'The Father', for his manifest attributes?

The Father.

There is no record of Jesus referring to GOD as any title other than 'The Father'. He gave no name or other title to GOD, apart from when his was actually crucified, and in that he was clearly asking that GOD why that GOD had forsaken him.

IF Jesus thought of Yahweh, Jehovah, Adonai, El, Eloah, Elohim, Shaddai, Ehyeh, Tzevaot, Jah as being 'The Father' one would think he would have used those titles as clear indication as to who he was referring to. By all accounts, this leads the reader to think Jesus may well have been introducing a new idea of GOD into the theological mix, and avoided using established religious titles purposefully in order not to be seen and heard to be representing those concepts attached to GOD, by those established religions.

Certainly it can be appreciated that Jesus did refer in positive ways to agents connected with those ideas of established religion re GOD, but this does not mean we are to assume from that, he was saying the OT idea of GOD was accurate and that the OT idea of GOD and The Father, were one and the same.

Rather, what he often enough pointed out was how those old ideas of GODs had been created to serve the agenda of organised religion and that it was important for the individual to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

It may indeed be that Jesus was referring to Yahweh when he spoke of The Father, but it is then clear that it had become necessary to engage with humans in this way because the very nature of Yahweh had been distorted by established religions so as to present a completely different entity than Yahweh actually was, and in this, Jesus was attempting to correct that misrepresentation.

[Elijah John]

To worship Jesus is to worship Yahweh and vice versa because both are members of the Triune Godhead.

As for John 17:3 which reads, "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent", it does not disprove the Trinity. There IS only one true God and he's Triune and the first person of the Godhead sent the Second Person of the Godhead to earth. That's what that statement means.

Again, I repeat the definition of the Trinity -- one God who exists as three persons, meaning that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are one in essence, but have individual consciousnesses and roles. When you understand the ontology of God rightly, you understand the Trinity.

How does one get anything but absolute Shema-Monotheism from John 17.3? Where is there mention of the supposed "Triune God" in that verse?

If it is as you suggest, why didn't Jesus say "us. the only true God"? By using "you" (the Father) he was, in effect, excluding himself as the or part of the "only true God".

I understand the concept, and that the Trinity is what you believe, but how does that address the topic of the OP?

Namely, what would it take for you (collective you, including you) to turn from Jesus-worship to worshiping the Father, Yahweh alone?

After all, isn't that what Jesus himself taught? Or doesn't it matter what Jesus taught.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 4 by William]

Historical and cultural context. Jesus was a Jew. Jew's worshiped Yahweh, under the stand-in terms "Adonai", (MyLORD) or HaShem, (the Name).

That name was used by King David over and over again in the Psalms, and almost 6000 times in the Hebrew Bible as a whole.

When Jesus taught us to hallow the name of the Father, what other name do you suppose he meant?

Notice, name, singular. Not names, plural.

THE Name, which many did not pronounce, but was there nonetheless. YHVH, Yahweh)

To supposed Jesus was introducing a "New Testament" God-concept is to remove Jesus from his religous-cultural context, and engage in revisionism.

All evidence is that Jesus worshipped Yahweh (however it was actually pronounced), which is the name of the Father.

There is a name for the heresy which considers the God of the two Testaments to be seperate Gods, I forget the name of the heresy, but it is a heresy.

[William]

[Replying to post 6 by Elijah John]

I find it interesting that you did not acknowledge the part of my post which said that it may indeed be that Jesus was referring to Yahweh when he spoke of The Father, but it is then clear that it had become necessary to engage with humans in this way because the very nature of Yahweh had been distorted by established religions so as to present a completely different entity than Yahweh actually was, and in this, Jesus was attempting to correct that misrepresentation.

Instead you decided to engage in speaking about heresy. Are you not aware that the fact that people can interpret Jesus was not speaking about the organised religion's version of GOD means things were not well in Judaism?

If Judaism had indeed wandered far from Yahweh, would it not be Judaism which was heretical? It would explain clearly many of the things Jesus said to the religious authorities as well as how they eventually succeeded in their conspiring to have him executed.

Also, you have yet to define what you mean by 'worship'.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 6 by Elijah John]

I find it interesting that you did not acknowledge the part of my post which said that it may indeed be that Jesus was referring to Yahweh when he spoke of The Father, but it is then clear that it had become necessary to engage with humans in this way because the very nature of Yahweh had been distorted by established religions so as to present a completely different entity than Yahweh actually was, and in this, Jesus was attempting to correct that misrepresentation.

Instead you decided to engage in speaking about heresy. Are you not aware that the fact that people can interpret Jesus was not speaking about the organised religion's version of GOD means things were not well in Judaism?

If Judaism had indeed wandered far from Yahweh, would it not be Judaism which was heretical? It would explain clearly many of the things Jesus said to the religious authorities as well as how they eventually succeeded in their conspiring to have him executed.

Also, you have yet to define what you mean by 'worship'.

Yes, Jesus was attempting to reform his native Judaism, not begin a new religion. Do we agree on that?

Sorry I missed it before, but yes, that is a good point. The OT in some ways does give us a projected, distorted image of Yahweh. The absurd and the atrocious portions that Jesus does not focus on, and sometimes corrects.

I do believe the voice of the real YHVH is better represented in the Psalms, Proverbs, the Ten Commandments, and verses such as Micah 6.6-6.8.

So yes, it is entirely probable that Jesus had a better understanding of the God of his Patriachs and Prophets than those who wrote Yahweh's narrative. Not two different Gods, per se, but two different understandings of God.

And the question of heresy would certainly not apply, or at least not the particular heresy I was thinking of.

And regarding worship, my understanding is that worship means praying to, giving thanks and praise to a particular entity. Thanks and praise in ways that acknowledge the Divinity of the object of one's prayers.

[DPMartin]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

you don't know God without the Word of God.


also Jesus never turned way those who worshiped Him when He walked amongst His People.

[William]

[Replying to post 8 by Elijah John]

Yes, Jesus was attempting to reform his native Judaism, not begin a new religion. Do we agree on that?

I don't think so. I agree that this might be the case and you agree that it is the case.

Sorry I missed it before, but yes, that is a good point. The OT in some ways does give us a projected, distorted image of Yahweh. The absurd and the atrocious portions that Jesus does not focus on, and sometimes corrects.

General speaking then, it does not actually matter 'what name to give GOD' because the name is not the GOD, and in that - has been defiled by the religions anyway...because it is the Character of GOD which defines the GOD. If we are to agree on the notion of 'the One True GOD' we can dispense with names and focus on Character.

In doing so, we can thus broaden the 'search parameters' to include other religions and spiritual ideologies which also have these characteristics of GOD in their theologies, effective identifying wheat from chaff in relation to that.

I do believe the voice of the real YHVH is better represented in the Psalms, Proverbs, the Ten Commandments, and verses such as Micah 6.6-6.8.

That's nice.
Now can you also identify this 'voice' in any of the words Jesus spoke, for he apparently made the claim he was with The Father before he incarnated AND that he was speaking the words The Father had told him.

As well that, can you also identify this 'voice' in any of the worlds religions holy books, doctrines, spiritual disciplines etc et all?

So yes, it is entirely probable that Jesus had a better understanding of the God of his Patriachs and Prophets than those who wrote Yahweh's narrative. Not two different Gods, per se, but two different understandings of God.

Thus it is conceivable that there are even more than two different understandings of GOD as in line with the idea that the same character of GOD can be found in all religion/spirituality of humankind. One GOD, different ideas about that GOD, different 'names' for that GOD (oft related to the ideas) but the same GOD.

And the question of heresy would certainly not apply, or at least not the particular heresy I was thinking of.

Well whatever. Heresy and blasphemy are devices used by organised religion to enable finger-pointing and condemnation in lieu of having to face and answer the hard questions. Historically, a deadly device and one The One True GOD is not part of, even that those using it claim otherwise.

And regarding worship, my understanding is that worship means praying to, giving thanks and praise to a particular entity. Thanks and praise in ways that acknowledge the Divinity of the object of one's prayers.

Okay that maybe an aspect of worship, or it may not be worship at all. Prayer appears to be asking for something, conversing, appealing. In instances where it is said that people fell before Jesus and worshiped him, was there any praying going on in that?

Here is another view on 'what is worship'.

All of your religions teach the worship of a deity and a doctrine of human salvation. It is the underlying kinship of your planet’s religions. However, I am not the deity that your worship falls upon, nor am I the creator of your doctrines of human salvation. Worship of me in coin or moral consideration is unnecessary. Simply express your authentic feelings of appreciation to my inmost presence within you and others, and you broadcast your worship unfailingly into my realm.
Attributed to First Source - "My Central Revelation" © WingMakers.com

It appears - perhaps - that worship has something to do with alignment and allegiance...