The "perfection of Jesus" myth

[Elijah John]

Is the notion of Jesus' moral perfection a myth?

Consider some New Testament evidence.

-

Why do you call me good? There is none good but God alone.

-Jesus underwent John's baptism "of repentance for the forgiveness of sins If Jesus was perfect, why would he need to repent of anything?

-

Let the dead bury their own dead

Is Jesus teaching against the Law here? Isn't there a Mosaic injunction to bury one's parents when they die? Is is a sin to tell people to break the Law? Isn't it a sin to call people names? (let the dead...)

For debate...

1) was Jesus indeed, morally perfect? If so, how do you account for this New Testament evidence to the contrary?

2) is there any other NT evidence that refutes the notion that Jesus was perfect?

3) Why is it so important for so many believers to cling to the notion that Jesus was perfect?

4) Does Jesus get a pass on all these things, because he is thought by many to be "God"? If he made the rules, can't he break them as well?

5) If Jesus did indeed keep the Law perfectly, isn't "being God" an unfair advantage in doing so?

------

Disclaimer, by attempting to establish the fact that Jesus was not perfect, the OP in no way is suggesting that Jesus was not a Godly, righteous or moral man. One can be all of those things without being "perfect".

[JehovahsWitness]

Isn't there a Mosaic injunction to bury one's parents when they die? Is is a sin to tell people to break the Law?

Why do you say this is "evidence" to the contrary?

Are you suggesting way your interpretation is "infallible"?

Isn't there a Mosaic injunction to bury one's parents when they die?

No there is not.

Is is a sin to tell people to break the Law?

Yes it is. However Jesus at no time told people to "to break the Law".

Isn't it a sin to call people names? (let the dead...)

Not if the name is accurate, no.

"Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?"

-- JESUS CHRIST

JW

[Elijah John]

Isn't it a sin to call people names? (let the dead...)

Not if the name is accurate, no.

"Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?"

-- JESUS CHRIST

JW

So Jesus tells us not to even call people "Fools" (Raca) in the Sermon on the Mount, yet he goes and calls people "Vipers".

Seems you have provided even more NT evidence that Jesus was not perfect.

If he did that on this site, that would draw a comment, at least, if not a warning for "personal attack".

If Jesus had called them "fools" instead of "vipers" would that have been a sin? Or does Jesus get a pass for being "God" or the "Son of God".

So you say that it is no sin if the name is "accurate". Is Jesus calling people who want to bury their parents themselves "dead", accurate?

Also, I'm thinking you are no expert on the Law, (neither am I). I wonder if a Jewish person on our site would clarify. Is it a mitzvot to bury one's parents?

[2timothy316]

Isn't it a sin to call people names? (let the dead...)

Not if the name is accurate, no.

"Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?"

-- JESUS CHRIST

JW

So Jesus tells us not to even call people "Fools" (Raca) in the Sermon on the Mount, yet he goes and calls people "Vipers".

Seems you have provided even more NT evidence that Jesus was not perfect.

If he did that on this site, that would draw a comment, at least, if not a warning for "personal attack".

If Jesus had called them "fools" instead of "vipers" would that have been a sin? Or does Jesus get a pass for being "God" or the "Son of God".

So you say that it is no sin if the name is "accurate". Is Jesus calling people who want to bury their parents themselves "dead", accurate?

Also, I'm thinking you are no expert on the Law, (neither am I). I wonder if a Jewish person on our site would clarify. Is it a mitzvot to bury one's parents?

"Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “I have seen that this is a stiff-necked people." Ex 32:9

Speaking of Jerusalem Jehovah said, "But you began to trust in your beauty, and you became a prostitute because of your fame. You lavished your acts of prostitution on everyone passing by, and your beauty became his." - Ez 16:15

Jehovah is calling people stiff-necked and prostitutes...is Jehovah imperfect too now? Or was Jehovah accurately naming Israel?

Were the ones Jesus called vipers not spiritually poisonous?

[tam]

Peace to you!

Isn't it a sin to call people names? (let the dead...)

Not if the name is accurate, no.

"Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?"

-- JESUS CHRIST

JW

So Jesus tells us not to even call people "Fools" (Raca) in the Sermon on the Mount, yet he goes and calls people "Vipers".

Seems you have provided even more NT evidence that Jesus was not perfect.

Not if they were indeed vipers.

If he did that on this site, that would draw a comment, at least, if not a warning for "personal attack".

The rules of this forum are not the rules (or laws) of God.

I understand of course the intent of this forum to keep things civil, but sometimes hatefulness is hidden beneath a guise of civility.

In other words, civility can be deceitful and dishonest.

Christ is not.

He said it like it was.


Again, I realize the intent is that we be respectful of one another. Good intent (golden rule and all).


But Christ came to bear witness to the truth. Truth is not always what some would consider to be 'civil' or 'nice'. Truth does come from love though. How can one turn around and repent if one does not know one has something to turn around and repent about? Sometimes quiet and coaxing and 'nice' words - are not enough to wake someone up. Especially not if they (and/or those who are listening to them) are in a deep sleep - and in danger - and need to be woken up fast.

So you say that it is no sin if the name is "accurate". Is Jesus calling people who want to bury their parents themselves "dead", accurate?

He did not call people who want to bury their parents dead. In fact, He did not even call that person he was speaking to, dead, did he?


He said, "Let the dead bury their own dead. But you go and proclaim the Kingdom."


Weren't people dead because death was in them? To cross over from death to LIFE, would one not need to come to Christ (who is Himself the Life), so that HE (the LIFE) could cover and be IN them?




Peace to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Elijah John]

Isn't it a sin to call people names? (let the dead...)

Not if the name is accurate, no.

"Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?"

-- JESUS CHRIST

JW

So Jesus tells us not to even call people "Fools" (Raca) in the Sermon on the Mount, yet he goes and calls people "Vipers".

Seems you have provided even more NT evidence that Jesus was not perfect.

If he did that on this site, that would draw a comment, at least, if not a warning for "personal attack".

If Jesus had called them "fools" instead of "vipers" would that have been a sin? Or does Jesus get a pass for being "God" or the "Son of God".

So you say that it is no sin if the name is "accurate". Is Jesus calling people who want to bury their parents themselves "dead", accurate?

Also, I'm thinking you are no expert on the Law, (neither am I). I wonder if a Jewish person on our site would clarify. Is it a mitzvot to bury one's parents?

"Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “I have seen that this is a stiff-necked people." Ex 32:9

Speaking of Jerusalem Jehovah said, "But you began to trust in your beauty, and you became a prostitute because of your fame. You lavished your acts of prostitution on everyone passing by, and your beauty became his." - Ez 16:15

Jehovah is calling people stiff-necked and prostitutes...is Jehovah imperfect too now? Or was Jehovah accurately naming Israel?

Were the ones Jesus called vipers not spiritually poisonous?

We both make distinctions between Jehovah and Jesus. Neither of us believe that Jesus is "God". Since this is the case, what right does Jesus have to call people names, especially after telling others not to do so?

In fact, If I remember correctly (though I don't recall the reference now) he did call some people "fools", did he not?

One standard for us, another, lower one for him?

I hate* taking the position of highlighting Jesus supposed flaws, I'd rather emphasize his compassionate righteousness, (which I have done many times on this site) but on the other hand, it is very disturbing that so many mythologize him (without ever having questioned) by calling him "perfect" and in so doing, rob him of his humanity.

Calling Jesus "God" or "perfect" or "firstborn of all Creation" is, in effect, pretty much all the same. It all smacks of a mythologized Jesus.

*(though I don't recognize Jesus moral perfection, I have no doubt that Jesus was far superior morally than I am or any other human, for that matter)

[2timothy316]

Isn't it a sin to call people names? (let the dead...)

Not if the name is accurate, no.

"Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?"

-- JESUS CHRIST

JW

So Jesus tells us not to even call people "Fools" (Raca) in the Sermon on the Mount, yet he goes and calls people "Vipers".

Seems you have provided even more NT evidence that Jesus was not perfect.

If he did that on this site, that would draw a comment, at least, if not a warning for "personal attack".

If Jesus had called them "fools" instead of "vipers" would that have been a sin? Or does Jesus get a pass for being "God" or the "Son of God".

So you say that it is no sin if the name is "accurate". Is Jesus calling people who want to bury their parents themselves "dead", accurate?

Also, I'm thinking you are no expert on the Law, (neither am I). I wonder if a Jewish person on our site would clarify. Is it a mitzvot to bury one's parents?

"Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “I have seen that this is a stiff-necked people." Ex 32:9

Speaking of Jerusalem Jehovah said, "But you began to trust in your beauty, and you became a prostitute because of your fame. You lavished your acts of prostitution on everyone passing by, and your beauty became his." - Ez 16:15

Jehovah is calling people stiff-necked and prostitutes...is Jehovah imperfect too now? Or was Jehovah accurately naming Israel?

Were the ones Jesus called vipers not spiritually poisonous?

We both make distinctions between Jehovah and Jesus. Neither of us believe that Jesus is "God". Since this is the case, what right does Jesus have to call people names, especially after telling others not to do so?

In fact, If I remember correctly (though I don't recall the reference now) he did call some people "fools", did he not?

One standard for us, another, lower one for him?

I hate* taking the position of highlighting Jesus supposed flaws, I'd rather emphasize his compassionate righteousness, (which I have done many times on this site) but on the other hand, it is very disturbing that so many mythologize him (without ever having questioned) by calling him "perfect" and in so doing, rob him of his humanity.

Calling Jesus "God" or "perfect" or "firstborn of all Creation" is, in effect, pretty much all the same. It all smacks of a mythologized Jesus.

*(though I don't recognize Jesus moral perfection, I have no doubt that Jesus was far superior morally than I am or any other human, for that matter)

Is this perfection by our standards or Jehovah's? Why does perfection mean Almighty God? Can't God make perfect things? Since I recognize the Bible as the Word of God, Jesus, even as a human is perfect by God's standards of perfect. This in no way robs Jesus of his humanity seeing how humanity in its current state was not what Jehovah intended for mankind. Before Jesus no one had seen what Jehovah calls a 'perfect man' since A&E.

Jesus does say though there is only one that is 'good'. That is his Father. Who cannot do bad. He can only do Good. All the rest of His free thinking creations can do bad. Jesus though has never done anything bad in God's eyes. But Jesus apparently doesn't share this 'only can do good' trait. Yet having the ability to do bad doesn't make one imperfect.

[steveb1]

Is the notion of Jesus' moral perfection a myth?

Consider some New Testament evidence.

-

Why do you call me good? There is none good but God alone.

-Jesus underwent John's baptism "of repentance for the forgiveness of sins If Jesus was perfect, why would he need to repent of anything?

-

Let the dead bury their own dead

Is Jesus teaching against the Law here? Isn't there a Mosaic injunction to bury one's parents when they die? Is is a sin to tell people to break the Law? Isn't it a sin to call people names? (let the dead...)

For debate...

1) was Jesus indeed, morally perfect? If so, how do you account for this New Testament evidence to the contrary?

2) is there any other NT evidence that refutes the notion that Jesus was perfect?

3) Why is it so important for so many believers to cling to the notion that Jesus was perfect?

4) Does Jesus get a pass on all these things, because he is thought by many to be "God"? If he made the rules, can't he break them as well?

5) If Jesus did indeed keep the Law perfectly, isn't "being God" an unfair advantage in doing so?
------
Disclaimer, by attempting to establish the fact that Jesus was not perfect, the OP in no way is suggesting that Jesus was not a Godly, righteous or moral man. One can be all of those things without being "perfect".

Jesus was not God and therefore was not perfect. He aligned himself with sinful Israel and submitted to John for baptism. As you said, he denied that anyone is good except God. And John's Jesus explicitly excludes himself from the Godhead in John 17:3 - "YOU [Father], are THE ONLY TRUE GOD". Not Apollo. Not Zeus. Not even Jesus, but the Father alone.

Moreover, Mark's profound seriousness in his presentation of Jesus's wilderness temptation clearly precedes the later God-man christology that claims that - as God and perfect man - Jesus was incapable of sin. Thus gutting the entire meaning of the Temptation narrative. Mark's Jesus was mostly likely vulnerable to giving into temptation precisely because as a mortal man, not an incarnate God, Jesus was at least in theory capable of sin in Mark's mind.

As your Disclaimer says, to say Jesus was not morally perfect is not in any way to diminish his moral center or his "general goodness", or even his sanctity. It's simply to say that, as a human being, Jesus was not perfect.

[JehovahsWitness]

So Jesus tells us not to even call people "Fools" (Raca) in the Sermon on the Mount, yet he goes and calls people "Vipers".

Seems you have provided even more NT evidence that Jesus was not perfect.

Either that, or YOUR understanding of what Jesus said is not perfect.

If he did that on this site, that would draw a comment, at least, if not a warning for "personal attack".

Thanks for sharing.

If Jesus had called them "fools" instead of "vipers" would that have been a sin?

Not if they were fools.

Or does Jesus get a pass for being "God" or the "Son of God".

A "pass" from who? Who has the right or authority to issue "a pass" to the Almighty or His appointed? I do believe there is a scripture in the bible that reads as follows

ISAIAH 29:16 - NWT
How you twist things! Should the potter be regarded the same as the clay?
Should what is made say about its maker: “He did not make me�? And does what is formed say about its former: “He shows no understanding�?

So you say that it is no sin if the name is "accurate".

No I did not say that.

Is Jesus calling people who want to bury their parents themselves "dead", accurate?

Did Jesus call people who want to bury their parents themselves "dead"?

lso, I'm thinking you are no expert on the Law, (neither am I). I wonder if a Jewish person on our site would clarify. Is it a mitzvot to bury one's parents?

I know enough to tell you there is no biblical law ordering people to bury their parents which is what you asked.

I wonder if a Jewish person on our site would clarify.

Do you believe being born "Jewish" makes a person an expert on the contents of the bible? If I were French would that automatically be an expert on cheese?

Is it a mitzvot to bury one's parents?

There is no such biblical command.


JW

[Elijah John]

So Jesus tells us not to even call people "Fools" (Raca) in the Sermon on the Mount, yet he goes and calls people "Vipers".

Seems you have provided even more NT evidence that Jesus was not perfect.

Either that, or YOUR understanding of what Jesus said is not perfect. JW

So...instead of addressing my arguments, you simplistically attack my "understanding". You, and some of your fellow JWs, have used this questionable tactic before.

Why is my understanding wrong, and your's right? I have supported my arguments, and provided examples, how do they miss the mark?

Please support your, and WTS arguments. Without links, if you please.