Hell revisited

[Woland]

Hello everyone!

Supposing, as is required on this subforum, that the Bible is indeed the word of God:

1. Is it reasonable to infer from scripture that there is a place of punishment after death?
a) If so, is it reasonable to infer from scripture that this is a place of everlasting punishment?
b) If so, what can we infer from scripture concerning the nature of the people condemned to this place of punishment?
c) If not, why is it that millions of Christians, including theologians past and present, believe that there is such a place based on their understanding of scripture? Where have these views come from?

I consider that this could be a very interesting thread if people participate and share their views on Hell, because Christians appear to be very divided on the questions of the existence and nature of such a place. It would be educative to explore where the different views stem from, and which of them can best be defended scripturally.

Thank you!

-Woland

[myth-one.com]

Hello Woland,

1. Is it reasonable to infer from scripture that there is a place of punishment after death?

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

a) If so, is it reasonable to infer from scripture that this is a place of everlasting punishment?

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

But let's understand the punishment. The punishment is due to sinning, and the wages of sin is death:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

b) If so, what can we infer from scripture concerning the nature of the people condemned to this place of punishment?

All of us are condemned because all of us have sinned. This spans the scale from really bad horrendous people to really good wonderful people. Our nature is sinful. All of us are involved!

I consider that this could be a very interesting thread if people participate and share their views on Hell, because Christians appear to be very divided on the questions of the existence and nature of such a place. It would be educative to explore where the different views stem from, and which of them can best be defended scripturally.

I agree. Most Christians (including myself) were taught that mankind is born with an immortal soul or spirit which cannot die. Consequently, we could not understand the scriptures which state that the fate of nonbelievers is to simply perish:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Once Christians believe the immortal soul myth, the "wages of sin" must become everlasting torture of some type -- as death in not an option.

Thus Christianity has found itself defending indefensible "true" statements such as:

God so loved the world that He plans for the majority of mankind to burn in hell eternally.

Pathetic!

[sleepyhead]

Hello woland,

Thanks for the invite. I don't think I can really contribute very much here though.

Hello everyone!

Supposing, as is required on this subforum, that the Bible is indeed the word of God:

The bible is a collection of writings encompassing two separate belief systems. It isn't all just one book.

1. Is it reasonable to infer from scripture that there is a place of punishment after death?

The God I believe is more into fixing a problem rather than punishing for the sake of punishing. Any experiences we have are meant to be an opportunity to learn rather than to punish.

a) If so, is it reasonable to infer from scripture that this is a place of everlasting punishment?

It's very possible that there may come a time when we will no longer have the opportunity to reincarnate and we will be stuck with what we have accomplished thus far.

b) If so, what can we infer from scripture concerning the nature of the people condemned to this place of punishment?

They didn't make use of the opportunities they had.

c) If not, why is it that millions of Christians, including theologians past and present, believe that there is such a place based on their understanding of scripture? Where have these views come from?

I will leave that for Christians to respond to.

[Defender of Truth]

The bible is a collection of writings encompassing two separate belief systems.

What are these two belief systems? Please explain.

It's very possible that there may come a time when we will no longer have the opportunity to reincarnate

Can you cite some verses from the Bible indicating that we have the opportunity to reincarnate now?

[Benoni]

The word hell is not to be found anywhere in the original language of the Bible and is a mistranslation of one Hebrew and three Greek words.

Yes the wicked will be punished but not forevere and ever.


Yes there is a Tar-ta-rus (tart rs) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1 an infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils not people. (mentioned only once in the Bible)

and a:

Ha-des(hadez) [[Gr Haides ]] 1 Gr. Myth. a) the home of the dead, beneath the earth b) the god of the underworld 2 Bible the state or resting place of the dead: name used in some modern translations of the New Testament

and a:

She-ol (eol) [[Heb shaal , to dig]] a place in the depths of the earth conceived of as the dwelling of the dead Note: translated in KJV about haft of scriptures as hell, the other haft as grave


and lastly a:

Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the gospel. This is the word the fundamental preachers love to use to burn up the sinner. They are the first to yell foul if something does not fit in context; BUT: Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; a place of constant burning of refuge. Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified bf God’s holy judgment. This word is used not for sinner, murders or liars; it is used with the word “BROTHER�.


God's people as well as the lost will be dealt with God's holy, rightous spiritual and most often symboliic fire (when speaking of revelation)MIStranslated by such Bible versions as the King James Bible
Actually there are four words mistranslated hell and this still does not make the word hell anything but PAGAN; look at the original language. I love how God’s people embrace such an evil word. You are on the right track but actually the word is not in the Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic the language the Bible was written in; but it comes from an Angle Saxon word “hel� meaning to bury. It is more then a mis-translation it a premeditated deliberate assault on scripture to in introduce the Teutonic pagan word


There are other translations like the Companion Bible King James Version, American Standard Version (1901), the Newberry Reference Bible (Still published by Kregal Publications), and the Riverside New Testament by Ballantine (1934) which contain footnotes, marginal readings and appendages which point out that several key Greek and Hebrew words regarding Hell have been MIStranslated by such Bible versions as the King James Bible. I have a list of Bibles which show the translations that contain the word Hell as well as the ones that don’t in the text is NOT exhaustive--we are discovering more translations all the time in which the translators did not feel justified in using the Teutonic pagan word Hell to translate the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek words Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus.




Matthew 5:22

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna) fire.




Gehenna is not physical flames, even though Gehenna is the garbage dump outside the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna Judgment is actually spiritual in nature, it is the reaping of what Isreal had sown by killing the prophets and their children in the fire to Molech and Baal at Topheth and in the Valley of Ben Hiddom (later called Gehenna). God warned that He is the only God, there is no other like Him.

Hello Woland,

1. Is it reasonable to infer from scripture that there is a place of punishment after death?

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

a) If so, is it reasonable to infer from scripture that this is a place of everlasting punishment?

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

But let's understand the punishment. The punishment is due to sinning, and the wages of sin is death:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

b) If so, what can we infer from scripture concerning the nature of the people condemned to this place of punishment?

All of us are condemned because all of us have sinned. This spans the scale from really bad horrendous people to really good wonderful people. Our nature is sinful. All of us are involved!

I consider that this could be a very interesting thread if people participate and share their views on Hell, because Christians appear to be very divided on the questions of the existence and nature of such a place. It would be educative to explore where the different views stem from, and which of them can best be defended scripturally.

I agree. Most Christians (including myself) were taught that mankind is born with an immortal soul or spirit which cannot die. Consequently, we could not understand the scriptures which state that the fate of nonbelievers is to simply perish:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Once Christians believe the immortal soul myth, the "wages of sin" must become everlasting torture of some type -- as death in not an option.

Thus Christianity has found itself defending indefensible "true" statements such as:

God so loved the world that He plans for the majority of mankind to burn in hell eternally.

Pathetic!

[sleepyhead]

The bible is a collection of writings encompassing two separate belief systems.

What are these two belief systems? Please explain.

It's very possible that there may come a time when we will no longer have the opportunity to reincarnate

Can you cite some verses from the Bible indicating that we have the opportunity to reincarnate now?

Hello defender of truth,

The two belief systems are Judaism and Christianity. The Jewish people use the 1st part and the Christians use the second part along with some study of the 1st.

I don't have my bible on this computer but there are some which indicate that we reincarnate. Keep in mind that if God thaught it was important for us to know what happens after death he could have very easily told Moses over that 40 year period.

1. When Jesus was in the garden he told peter that those who live by the sword will die by the sword.

2. In the parable of the talents (depending on what you consider talents to signify), He gave the one who increased his talents more talents and the individual who buried his talents he took them away.

3. A number of verses indicate that the sould who would become the Christ was on the earth previously as a man. See the following links for a more full explanation:

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=14390
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=14327

[Amadeus]

I would have to disagree with Benoni. The Bible clearly states that the wicked are punished forever and ever.

myth-one.com quoted Matthew 25:26 which states this. See also Revelation 20:10:
"and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

And Revelation 20:15
"And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

[Benoni]

Disagree all you want the doctrine of eternal toment is full of holes.

Take Revelation which is the most spiritual book ever written. So spiritual John purposely declared he was in Spirit on the Lord's day. He did not purposely tell anyone he was being literal in any since of the word.

The lake of Fire is spiritual not literal.. Unless you can show me using chaptr and verse it is literal in any since of the word.



Why would create a HUGH pocket of billions and billions of lost souls he would be helpless able to do a thing about who for eternity or for ever and ever would be using his name in vain would be cursing his name; seeing they were never called.

Last of all the Bible says the letter killeth and your understanding of Matt. 25 is killing God's Word. Remember the spirit quicken which is the correct way we should approach God's deep and divine Word.

I would have to disagree with Benoni. The Bible clearly states that the wicked are punished forever and ever.

myth-one.com quoted Matthew 25:26 which states this. See also Revelation 20:10:
"and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

And Revelation 20:15
"And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

[Slopeshoulder]

Hello Woland,

1. Is it reasonable to infer from scripture that there is a place of punishment after death?

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

a) If so, is it reasonable to infer from scripture that this is a place of everlasting punishment?

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

But let's understand the punishment. The punishment is due to sinning, and the wages of sin is death:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

b) If so, what can we infer from scripture concerning the nature of the people condemned to this place of punishment?

All of us are condemned because all of us have sinned. This spans the scale from really bad horrendous people to really good wonderful people. Our nature is sinful. All of us are involved!

I consider that this could be a very interesting thread if people participate and share their views on Hell, because Christians appear to be very divided on the questions of the existence and nature of such a place. It would be educative to explore where the different views stem from, and which of them can best be defended scripturally.

I agree. Most Christians (including myself) were taught that mankind is born with an immortal soul or spirit which cannot die. Consequently, we could not understand the scriptures which state that the fate of nonbelievers is to simply perish:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Once Christians believe the immortal soul myth, the "wages of sin" must become everlasting torture of some type -- as death in not an option.

Thus Christianity has found itself defending indefensible "true" statements such as:

God so loved the world that He plans for the majority of mankind to burn in hell eternally.

Pathetic!

Hi myth one:
Can you clarify for me: are you saying that those who don't go to heaven basically perish, or are punished simply by knowing they are not with God, or something like that? some alternative to endless physical lake of fire torture? I'm having trouble following what you mean, but I am intrigued.

OP, my views on Hell were expressed in the other Hell thread and I have neither a particular interest nor expertise in its scriptural bases in isolation of everthing that has transpired since; nor would I privilege scripture overly much vs other sources. But this is a good thread topic and I will read.

[Amadeus]

Benoni:

When John says he was in the Spirit, he does not mean that everything is a metaphor. He is saying that by the power of the Holy Spirit he had a vision. I would like some verses to support your postion.