Jesus & the Torah

[Murad]

I have studied the bible for over 40 years. ....Jesus fulfilled all the law and all prophecies about Him in the Spirit.

Question for debate:
1. Did Jesus fulfill all the prophesy in the Torah like many Christians claim?

[Jrosemary]

I have studied the bible for over 40 years. ....Jesus fulfilled all the law and all prophecies about Him in the Spirit.

Question for debate:
1. Did Jesus fulfill all the prophesy in the Torah like many Christians claim?

Not according to Jews--and, ah, the Torah and the larger Tanakh (what Christians call the 'Old Testament') is our scripture, after all.

Seriously, though, this is such a wide question that you'll probably have to break it down to specific prophecies and such. And be prepared for arguments about the Hebrew text versus the Greek version, historical situations, textural criticism and whether certain passages even refer to prophecies to begin with.

[Murad]

Not according to Jews--and, ah, the Torah and the larger Tanakh (what Christians call the 'Old Testament') is our scripture, after all.

Hello Jsrosemary

Can you provide examples on what Jesus did not fulfull.

I can think of the 1000years of rule on the top of my head, but i know there are plenty more of unfulfilled prophesy.

[Goat]

Not according to Jews--and, ah, the Torah and the larger Tanakh (what Christians call the 'Old Testament') is our scripture, after all.

Hello Jsrosemary

Can you provide examples on what Jesus did not fulfull.

I can think of the 1000years of rule on the top of my head, but i know there are plenty more of unfulfilled prophesy.

Well, for one.. the 'Seed of David' is a direct male decendent, through the direct male line without any 'skips' in generations. .. (In modern terms, that person is carrying the David Y-Chromosome')

If you take the New Testament literally, since he has no father, he is not of the "Seed of David'

[JehovahsWitness]

Question for debate:
1. Did Jesus fulfill all the prophesy in the Torah like many Christians claim?

Yes I believe he did fulfill many of the Messianic prophecies and will, in his post human heavenly existence, fulfill the rest in due time.

[bjs]

Not according to Jews--and, ah, the Torah and the larger Tanakh (what Christians call the 'Old Testament') is our scripture, after all.

Hello Jsrosemary

Can you provide examples on what Jesus did not fulfull.

I can think of the 1000years of rule on the top of my head, but i know there are plenty more of unfulfilled prophesy.

I thought the thousand year rule was from the New Testament – specifically Revelations – not the Torah.

[cnorman18]

Question for debate:
1. Did Jesus fulfill all the prophesy in the Torah like many Christians claim?

Yes I believe he did fulfill many of the Messianic prophecies and will, in his post human heavenly existence, fulfill the rest in due time.

Well, that's one difference; there's nothing in Jewish tradition about the Messiah showing up twice. And before we go there, please, let's not have any Christians trying to show that "yes, you Jews really DO believe that" by digging up some off-the-wall Kabbalist from the 12th century who wrote something that could be mistranslated or read to indicate that. There's nothing SIGNIFICANT in Jewish tradition that goes there. That goes for the rest of this post, too.

The simple fact is that the Christian Christ and the Jewish Messiah are two entirely different and unrelated concepts:

The Christian Christ is (1) born of a virgin and without sin; (2) God Incarnate, both fully God and fully Man; (3) the Lamb of God, the substitutionary sacrifice through which all humans are redeemed from sin; (4) the Savior, belief in whom accesses that redemption, which can be accessed in no other way; and (5) the Firstfruits of the Dead, the Resurrected Savior who sits at the right hand of God and is himself God.

There is nothing in Jewish tradition about ANY of that, as noted above. We are usually offered one or two, tops, distorted or mistranslated verses justifying each of these MAJOR teachings of Christianity from the OT -- as if there's no reasonable expectation that differences this huge and this important ought to have been featured prominently in the Jewish faith for centuries. ALL these ideas appeared with the advent of Christianity and not before. Further, every single one of them can be found in Greek religion, and not in the Jewish faith.

By way of contrast, the Jewish Messiah is to be (1) a mortal man, anointed to be sure, but an ordinary mortal for all that; (2) the rightful King of Israel, an earthly ruler; and (3) a war leader, who will drive out Israel's enemies and restore that nation to earthly greatness. During his reign, the Messianic Age is to begin, which will be (4) a thousand years of perfect peace, justice and faith on THIS Earth, and (5) the time when all the Jews who have been scattered all over the world will return to their land, again in THIS life, on THIS Earth.

Notice that these two lists have nothing in common. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Two different guys, folks. That's why I have no problem leaving Christian belief to Christians and have no interest in declaring it false. It has nothing to do with me or my people. This is also why I get bent out of shape when someone, anyone, tries to tell me that Jews really do, or should, believe in Jesus as a part of the Jewish religion. That's the equivalent of telling us that we really do believe in Muhammad, but are just too dim to understand that or too dishonest to admit it. It's ludicrous, and it's insulting.

The Messiah, in Jewish teaching, was never to be identified through "fulfilling prophecies" in the first place; he is to be identified by performance. The Messianic Age hasn't begun, here on this planet? Perfect peace, justice and faith isn't here yet? Then Messiah has not yet come. Period, full stop, all we need to know.

Again, if anyone has the idea that they'd like to try to prove that we Jews don't understand our own religion, please don't trouble yourself. If you want to do that, I'll feel free to explain to you that Christians are really Greek polytheists who believe in Mithras, the dying and rising savior/god, and demigods and heroes like Hercules, the literal son of Zeus, and that you're just too dumb and uneducated about your own faith to understand that -- or that you DO understand that and are lying about it so you won't have to admit it.

No, I DON'T really think that. But I hope you see the point.

[JehovahsWitness]

Well, that's one difference; there's nothing in Jewish tradition about the Messiah showing up twice.

So? Does there have to be? There are plenty of things that were revealed progressively in hebrew scripture, the torah initally mentioning a promised seed through Abraham but only later revealing a royal dimension through David. The tabernacle eventually giving way to a system of worship based around the temple. Not to mention the prophet's detailed writings which one can only presume contained information of value at the time they delivered their message which was not privy to those living thousands of years before their birth....

In short, God's purpose was progressively revealed over thousands of years to his peope and, if some would be believed the Jewish people still await the concretization of certain messianic promises proving there is still more to learn about how the prophetic patters would play out - whether that be through the united nations 1968 declaration (an organisation not mentioned in the Hebrew scritptures) or some other means past, present or future.

So short of the Hebrew scriptures explicitely saying the Messiah absolutely will NOT come "twice" this can be classified as the continued revelation of truth in keeping with the Divine pattern.

[cnorman18]

Well, that's one difference; there's nothing in Jewish tradition about the Messiah showing up twice.

So? Does there have to be? There are plenty of things that were revealed progressively in hebrew scripture, the torah initally mentioning a promised seed through Abraham but only later revealing a royal dimension through David. The tabernacle eventually giving way to a system of worship based around the temple. Not to mention the prophet's detailed writings which one can only presume contained information of value at the time they delivered their message which was not privy to those living thousands of years before their birth....

In short, God's purpose was progressively revealed over thousands of years to his peope and, if some would be believed the Jewish people still await the concretization of certain messianic promises proving there is still more to learn about how the prophetic patters would play out - whether that be through the united nations 1968 declaration (an organisation not mentioned in the Hebrew scritptures) or some other means past, present or future.

So short of the Hebrew scriptures explicitely saying the Messiah absolutely will NOT come "twice" this can be classified as the continued revelation of truth in keeping with the Divine pattern.

Like I keep saying; Christians may believe anything they like, with no argument from me; but you don't get to tell Jews how to interpret or understand our own Scriptures or why our own traditions and teachings are or might be wrong. That's our business, and non-Jews don't get a vote.

Peace to you, but keep your hands off my religion and mind your own. I don't tell you what to believe, or what you should believe, or what you might consider; kindly extend the same courtesy to me.

[JehovahsWitness]

If you take the New Testament literally, since he has no father, he is not of the "Seed of David'

Jewish inheritance law was not genetic based but rather linked to the family line/name. Thus if a man died without an heir his brother could take his late brothers wife in order to father children for the continuation of his brothers name and inheritance.

The fact that Jesus genetic code was not inherited literally from the semen of Joseph would no more disqualify him from being Josephs legal heir than would the descendents of a 'brother in law' marriage. Jesus was born of the royal line of David both through his adopted father and his mother and thus fully qualified in a claim to be a descendent of King David.