Cherry picking your way though the Bible...

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adthemad
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Cherry picking your way though the Bible...

Post #1

Post by adthemad »

THIS is the passage your hear a lot of... and when I went to church it was mentioned quite often and in fact it was up on the wall:
John 3:16 (New International Version)
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life

However THIS passage wasn't:
15:32. And it came to pass, when the children of Israel were in the wilderness, and had found a man gathering sticks on the sabbath day,
15:33. That they brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole multitude.
15:34. And they put him into prison, not knowing what they should do with him.
15:35. And the Lord said to Moses: Let that man die, let all the multitude stone him without the camp.
15:36. And when they had brought him out, they stoned him, and he died as the Lord had commanded.

I'm wondering in what universe / language / time is it possible for a deity powerful enough to create the universe(s) as we know it... the beauty of the entire biological ecosystem of our blue planet in our galaxy the milky way... how is it possible that writing about stoning a man to death for picking up twigs makes it into the final draft of this book that's meant to be some sort guidance for us wee humankind?

how do you cherry pick the good bits out of the bad?

I was in the woods last Sunday... saw a man picking up some twigs...

the rest is history :?

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Post #2

Post by Jrosemary »

The Torah is Jewish scripture and absolutely central to Jewish religion--and yet Jews don't feel obliged to follow it in the sense of executing people who violate Shabbat observances! G-d may arguably have given us the Torah, but G-d also gave us brains to help us decide how to interpret it and how to implement its mitzvot (Commandments).

The way to handle difficult and challenging passages is to examine them, argue them, debate them--even argue with G-d about them. We're not passive readers of the Torah; we're to bring the best of our intellect and compassion when we interact with Scripture.

The difficult parts of Scripture shouldn't be brushed over, either. Fortunately, that's pretty much impossible in a syangogue setting, since we read the entire Torah every year, breaking it up into weekly 'Torah portions' or parshas. Also, the rabbis I know don't shy away from difficult passages during Torah study!

I've found the same is true in churches I've visited. Generally the Torah and the larger Tanakh (what Christians call the 'Old Testament') don't get as much attention as the New Testament. And that makes a certain amount of sense in a Christian setting. But most of the ministers and priests I've known (who tend to be of a liberal persuasion) don't shy away from the difficult parts of the New Testament. Many of them, for example, tackle the New Testament passages which seem to be antisemitic head on.

cnorman18

Post #3

Post by cnorman18 »

Jrosemary wrote:The Torah is Jewish scripture and absolutely central to Jewish religion--and yet Jews don't feel obliged to follow it in the sense of executing people who violate Shabbat observances! G-d may arguably have given us the Torah, but G-d also gave us brains to help us decide how to interpret it and how to implement its mitzvot (Commandments).

The way to handle difficult and challenging passages is to examine them, argue them, debate them--even argue with G-d about them. We're not passive readers of the Torah; we're to bring the best of our intellect and compassion when we interact with Scripture.

The difficult parts of Scripture shouldn't be brushed over, either. Fortunately, that's pretty much impossible in a syangogue setting, since we read the entire Torah every year, breaking it up into weekly 'Torah portions' or parshas. Also, the rabbis I know don't shy away from difficult passages during Torah study!

I've found the same is true in churches I've visited. Generally the Torah and the larger Tanakh (what Christians call the 'Old Testament') don't get as much attention as the New Testament. And that makes a certain amount of sense in a Christian setting. But most of the ministers and priests I've known (who tend to be of a liberal persuasion) don't shy away from the difficult parts of the New Testament. Many of them, for example, tackle the New Testament passages which seem to be antisemitic head on.
Very well said. The principle, in Jewish law, is based on the phrase "The Torah is not in Heaven." Now that the Torah has been given to humans, it belongs to US; and WE have the authority to determine what it does and does not mean and entail. There is a fascinating story which illustrates this principle and which I have quoted many times.

Short version: A group of rabbis was discussing a point of Jewish law, a rather trivial point as it happens - about whether or not an unkosher oven (they were made of fired clay in those days) could be rendered kosher again. One rabbi maintained, against the opposition of all the others, that it could not. When challenged, he showed several miracles to prove that he was right; a tree uprooted itself and moved, a stream flowed uphill, and the very walls of the Beit Midrash (the house of study) began to move. The council refused to change its position. Finally, a voice from Heaven proclaimed that the rabbi was right.

The leader of the council stood and rebuked God Himself with the words, "The Torah is not in Heaven!" and the decision of the council stood.

(Be it noted that no one reads this story as an accurate report of an actual historical event. It is a teaching story; the point is not that "God makes miracles happen," but that even if He does, they are no longer relevant to our decisions. We are on our own now.)

Here is the point: We are no longer to listen to voices from Heaven or consider "miracles" when reaching a decision; we are, by Jewish law, obliged to use our intelligence and best human judgment, collectively as a community, through the wisest of our people - who are identified by the consensus of the community itself. It is forbidden to regard the Bible as a book of easy, pat answers that must be obeyed without question. That is irresponsible and a betrayal of our nature and our role as intelligent, morally aware human beings, and it inevitably leads to atrocity and absurdity. Believing in God, and even acknowledging the place of the Bible in our religious and cultural history, does not mean we are obliged to kiss our brains goodbye and stop thinking and making moral judgments in favor of mindless dogmatism. That way lies madness and evil.

My own rabbi expressed the principle thus: "If you see something in the Torah that you know beyond doubt is morally wrong, there are two possibilities; either you are not reading the Torah correctly - or the Torah is in error."

Notice that the third alternative - disregarding established facts and one's own rational judgment in favor of doctrinaire dogmatism - is not available to us. Another principle of Jewish law is that "a well-constructed and logically sound argument has the authority as a Biblical command." We dare not ignore what we know to be true and right in favor of problematic statements in a 3,000-year-old set of documents.

The arguments that take place so often here, about whether or not the Bible should be read and obeyed literally, are only of concern to those who claim that it must be: fundamentalists, as well as - and I have always found this odd - many atheists. I have seen the explicit claim made here that anyone who does NOT read and obey the Bible dogmatically and literally cannot really be religious or even authentically believe in God, and I have seen that claim from both sides. It's ludicrous.

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Re: Cherry picking your way though the Bible...

Post #4

Post by myth-one.com »

adthemad wrote:15:32. And it came to pass, when the children of Israel were in the wilderness, and had found a man gathering sticks on the sabbath day,
15:33. That they brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole multitude.
15:34. And they put him into prison, not knowing what they should do with him.
15:35. And the Lord said to Moses: Let that man die, let all the multitude stone him without the camp.
15:36. And when they had brought him out, they stoned him, and he died as the Lord had commanded.
adthemad wrote:I was in the woods last Sunday... saw a man picking up some twigs...

the rest is history :?
It is not a sin to work on Sunday, the first day of the week. It is a sin to work on the Sabbath.

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Re: Cherry picking your way though the Bible...

Post #5

Post by Jrosemary »

myth-one.com wrote:
adthemad wrote:15:32. And it came to pass, when the children of Israel were in the wilderness, and had found a man gathering sticks on the sabbath day,
15:33. That they brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole multitude.
15:34. And they put him into prison, not knowing what they should do with him.
15:35. And the Lord said to Moses: Let that man die, let all the multitude stone him without the camp.
15:36. And when they had brought him out, they stoned him, and he died as the Lord had commanded.
adthemad wrote:I was in the woods last Sunday... saw a man picking up some twigs...

the rest is history :?
It is not a sin to work on Sunday, the first day of the week. It is a sin to work on the Sabbath.
Well, yeah. The Torah and the larger Tanakh are Jewish Scripture and when the Torah refers to Shabbat, it means, well, Shabbat--the seventh day of the week. Moreover, the Shabbat restrictions only apply to Jews, and, in some cases, to gentiles who had fled Egypt with the Jewish people and had semi-joined themselves to the Jewish people. (There doesn't seem to have been anything as formal as a conversion system set up yet in the gathering-wood-on-Shabbat story.)

At any event, from a Jewish point of view the Shabbat restrictions don't apply to modern Christians or any other gentiles. No one ever told a Hindu not to work on Shabbat! Some Christians, however, believe those restrictions do hold for Christians, but there's not much consensus on that.

Most Christians now celebrate Shabbat on the first day (Sunday) instead of the seventh. They also don't reckon their days as Jews do. Shabbat begins on Friday night about eighteen minutes before sundown and ends an hour past sundown on Saturday. That's because a biblical day goes from sunset to sunset--the extra hour and eighteen minutes for Shabbat is kind of thrown in there for good measure.

So to recap: Christians reckon days differently and celebrate Shabbat on a different day than the Torah speaks of, due, I think, to the fact that Christians wanted to celebrate Shabbat on the day of the resurrection. And there's no consensus among Christians as to which Shabbat restrictions--if any--apply to their new sabbath.

All that said, there have always been Christians who still celebrate Shabbat on Shabbat. A Sunday Sabbath wasn't the norm for Christianity until after the 4th century C.E., and Seventh Day Adventists, as one example, still keep the traditional Shabbat.

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Re: Cherry picking your way though the Bible...

Post #6

Post by McCulloch »

adthemad wrote:I was in the woods last Sunday... saw a man picking up some twigs...

the rest is history
I believe that the point being made by adthemad, is that the guy in the woods that Moses and his Taliban found gathering sticks, also did not evidently accept that the Shabbat rules applied to him. But they killed him anyway. It is a good thing that most modern religions, especially Judaism, do not look to Moses for examples of right behavior.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Re: Cherry picking your way though the Bible...

Post #7

Post by Jrosemary »

McCulloch wrote:
adthemad wrote:I was in the woods last Sunday... saw a man picking up some twigs...

the rest is history
I believe that the point being made by adthemad, is that the guy in the woods that Moses and his Taliban found gathering sticks, also did not evidently accept that the Shabbat rules applied to him. But they killed him anyway. It is a good thing that most modern religions, especially Judaism, do not look to Moses for examples of right behavior.
It depends on the particular story of Moshe in question. In the Torah study at my shul, Moshe sometimes comes under heavy fire from us--other times we admire him greatly. He remains Moshe Rabbenu in any case: Moses our Teacher/Rabbi. But, you know, Judaism is a religion that doesn't mind arguing with G-d. We certainly don't mind arguing with even our greatest rabbi!

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Re: Cherry picking your way though the Bible...

Post #8

Post by McCulloch »

Jrosemary wrote: It depends on the particular story of Moshe in question. In the Torah study at my shul, Moshe sometimes comes under heavy fire from us--other times we admire him greatly. He remains Moshe Rabbenu in any case: Moses our Teacher/Rabbi. But, you know, Judaism is a religion that doesn't mind arguing with G-d. We certainly don't mind arguing with even our greatest rabbi!
Let's just say that Moses is not presented in that particular story as being the kind of guy you would like to represent your moral principles.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Post #9

Post by adthemad »

McCulloch wrote:

I believe that the point being made by adthemad, is that the guy in the woods that Moses and his Taliban found gathering sticks, also did not evidently accept that the Shabbat rules applied to him. But they killed him anyway. It is a good thing that most modern religions, especially Judaism, do not look to Moses for examples of right behavior.


It depends on the particular story of Moshe in question. In the Torah study at my shul, Moshe sometimes comes under heavy fire from us--other times we admire him greatly. He remains Moshe Rabbenu in any case: Moses our Teacher/Rabbi. But, you know, Judaism is a religion that doesn't mind arguing with G-d. We certainly don't mind arguing with even our greatest rabbi!
just as I expected... no-one sees the elephant in the room...

I'm trying t wrap my head around this one so here goes:

God creates the universe (as we know it) not in some sort of 'it's created and there its's done now'... no it's a CONTINUOUS process and planets like ours are in development as we speak... I digress

13.7 billion years ago or 10,000years ago depending on your doctrine (wow that's some discrepancy - but I digress)

cut a very long story short... God creates 100's of billions of beautiful stars in 100's of billions of beautiful galaxies and in one such galaxy on the fourth arm of the spiral he chooses to create trillions on of beautiful life forms and of those life forms he has a favourite as he likes the idea of communicating with us...

at this stage it seems like a good idea to bring into being the actual concept of stoning someone to death... yes that's right... throwing rocks at someone until they are clinically dead (something they probably didn't even know back then)... so throwing rocks at someone who flinches in agony as each hate filled projectile tears flesh and bone and when they stop wailing and moving are 'probably dead'

can ANYONE justify this text?

it's probably one of the passages in the bible that turned me away from the Christian path at the tender age of 21...

BTW the man in the woods was ME!... stumbling upon this hideous passage was MEANT to be a Bible 'READING' to present to a youth group prayer as part of an outreach!!

I looked up from the page and saw a squirrel burying nuts... and in the distance a man picking up sticks...

still gives me shivers to this day!

i feel sick every time i open the bible :-/

Ad

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Post #10

Post by Jrosemary »

adthemad wrote:
just as I expected... no-one sees the elephant in the room...

I'm trying t wrap my head around this one so here goes:

God creates the universe (as we know it) not in some sort of 'it's created and there its's done now'... no it's a CONTINUOUS process and planets like ours are in development as we speak... I digress

13.7 billion years ago or 10,000years ago depending on your doctrine (wow that's some discrepancy - but I digress)

cut a very long story short... God creates 100's of billions of beautiful stars in 100's of billions of beautiful galaxies and in one such galaxy on the fourth arm of the spiral he chooses to create trillions on of beautiful life forms and of those life forms he has a favourite as he likes the idea of communicating with us...

at this stage it seems like a good idea to bring into being the actual concept of stoning someone to death... yes that's right... throwing rocks at someone until they are clinically dead (something they probably didn't even know back then)... so throwing rocks at someone who flinches in agony as each hate filled projectile tears flesh and bone and when they stop wailing and moving are 'probably dead'

can ANYONE justify this text?

it's probably one of the passages in the bible that turned me away from the Christian path at the tender age of 21...

BTW the man in the woods was ME!... stumbling upon this hideous passage was MEANT to be a Bible 'READING' to present to a youth group prayer as part of an outreach!!

I looked up from the page and saw a squirrel burying nuts... and in the distance a man picking up sticks...

still gives me shivers to this day!

i feel sick every time i open the bible :-/

Ad

Why are you looking to justify the passage? Why not engage it, argue with it, or scream at G-d for it with justified moral outrage?

Personally, I don't think your job is to justify passages in the Bible that seem immoral or morally problematic!

There are sublime passages and great moral teachings in the Torah--and there are horrifying passages. Ditto for the rest of the Tanakh and the New Testament. Ditto for the Bhagavad Gita (Vishnu is terrifying when he talks about how he's already killed all these men!) Scriptures tend to show both G-d and humanity at their best and worst. That's why there's so much to sink your teeth into, so much to learn from . . . and so much to protest.

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