Heaven

[JBlack]

God has chosen those whom he will save through his divine election for his purposes. There is nothing any man can do to become saved but beg God for mercy unto salvation. Asking for mercy does not guarantee our salvation...
For example, the bible says if seek him and you shall find him but it also makes it clear that NO ONE seeks him, the bible says repent, but it is God who grants repentance, the bible says come to me all you who are weary, but it also teaches that NO ONE can come unless drawn by the Father, And again the bible says he who recieves me receives the one who sent me, but it also teaches that no one can receive anything unless it be given him from heaven. So while one one hand some commands may seem clear we get further clarification when we compare all of the scriptures together.

So, there's nothing anybody can do to be saved. I can become Christian, accept Jesus, repent, do as the bible says, and after I die... still go to hell?
But yet, God is just, merciful and all-loving?!?

Yes, you can do all those things above and still go to hell.

But what about verses like these?:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Questions for debate:

1. What must one do, according to the Bible, in order to go to heaven?
2. If AIEC is right, that you can become Christian and do as the Bible says, and still go to hell when you die, then what is the point of Christianity?

[SpiritQuickens]

God has chosen those whom he will save through his divine election for his purposes. There is nothing any man can do to become saved but beg God for mercy unto salvation. Asking for mercy does not guarantee our salvation...
For example, the bible says if seek him and you shall find him but it also makes it clear that NO ONE seeks him, the bible says repent, but it is God who grants repentance, the bible says come to me all you who are weary, but it also teaches that NO ONE can come unless drawn by the Father, And again the bible says he who recieves me receives the one who sent me, but it also teaches that no one can receive anything unless it be given him from heaven. So while one one hand some commands may seem clear we get further clarification when we compare all of the scriptures together.

So, there's nothing anybody can do to be saved. I can become Christian, accept Jesus, repent, do as the bible says, and after I die... still go to hell?
But yet, God is just, merciful and all-loving?!?

Yes, you can do all those things above and still go to hell.

But what about verses like these?:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Questions for debate:

1. What must one do, according to the Bible, in order to go to heaven?
2. If AIEC is right, that you can become Christian and do as the Bible says, and still go to hell when you die, then what is the point of Christianity?

Yes, you can do all those things above and still go to hell.

^By responding this way, he is doing a serious disservice to the doctrine of election. It is impossible to truly repent and not be saved.

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out."-John 6:37.

"All that the Father gives Me" - God gives people to Jesus. He elects them - "will come to Me" - will believe in Jesus. "Come to Me" is synonymous for "believe in Me" in the Gospel of John ("whoever comes to Me shall not hunger and whoever believes in Me shall never thirst-John 6:35"). "And whoever comes to Me I will never cast out." He will never cast out anyone who truly repents.

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in Heaven."-Matthew 7:21. <--these people had not truly repented, as is clear from the context, in which Jesus is talking about "bearing fruit", i.e., living in a manner worthy of Him.

It's true that whoever believes is saved. The emphasis, in those passages you're quoting, have to do with man's responsibility. Ultimately, however, it is God who causes us to believe. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out."-John 6:37. A man only believes in Jesus when the Word if preached to them if God has given them to Jesus, since, as Jesus says only 7 verses later, "No one can come to Me unless My Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."-John 6:44.

God's means of saving is to apply the preached Word to the heart of the unbeliever, if He pleases, and save that person.

"And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, "Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent; for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city."-Acts 18:9-10.

Paul is told not to be afraid because God had many chosen people in this city to whose hearts He planned on applying the Word preached by Paul. Jesus Himself tells us why people don't believe the preached message:

"...the works that I do in My Father's name bear witness about Me, but you do not believe because you are not part of My flock. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand."-John 10:25-29.

Christ shed blood on the cross to pay for the sins of His elect, as a substitution on their behalf, so that, though punished as a sinner, His perfect righteousness could be credited to sinners who actually deserve that kind of punishment. Those whom the Father has given to Jesus will believe in Him (a person must believe in Jesus for salvation, and belief implies having been "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world"(Eph. 1:4), and He will not cast such a person out.(John 6:37).

[myth-one.com]

1. What must one do, according to the Bible, in order to go to heaven?

The Bible never indicates that Christians are going to Heaven. In fact it states that Jesus is the only man who who has ever ascended up to Heaven:

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (John 3:13)

The Bible always states that Christians will become members of the Kingdom of God residing within the Kingdom of Heaven. As SpiritQuickens quoted:

Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in Heaven.-Matthew 7:21.

The geographical location Heaven is included within the Kingdom of Heaven, but they are not necessarily the same. The entire kingdom could be much larger than its center or base of activity which is Heaven itself. That is, the ruler is God the Father who rules from heaven. His rule extends over the entire Kingdom of Heaven. This will eventually include the earth which will be ruled by Jesus:

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 11:15)

The earth will once again become part of the Kingdom of Heaven. It will not be heaven, but will be under God's rule and part of the Kingdom of Heaven as is heaven itself. This will occur when Jesus returns to take back control of the earth from Satan. And how long does Jesus our Lord intend to reign on the earth?

The Lord shall reign for ever and ever. (Exodus 15:18)

And what are the born again Christians going to be doing after Jesus' return?

We shall also reign with him. (II Timothy 2:12)

And how long are the born again Christians going to be with the Lord Jesus?

. . . and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

Where will Jesus base His rule and locate His tabernacle to rule the earth? The holy city of new Jerusalem:

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. (Revelation 21:2-3)

Since Jesus is going to rule the earth forever from new Jerusalem, and we will rule with Him, and be with Him forever, where does that place us forever and ever? On the earth!

2. If AIEC is right, that you can become Christian and do as the Bible says, and still go to hell when you die, then what is the point of Christianity?

The verses you quoted under "But what about verses like these?" are sufficient to prove anyone can be saved.

[JBlack]

It's true that whoever believes is saved. The emphasis, in those passages you're quoting, have to do with man's responsibility. Ultimately, however, it is God who causes us to believe. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out."-John 6:37. A man only believes in Jesus when the Word if preached to them if God has given them to Jesus, since, as Jesus says only 7 verses later, "No one can come to Me unless My Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."-John 6:44.

If we can't believe in Jesus unless we're chosen by God, then is there a such thing as free will?

[Heterodoxus]

What must one do, according to the Bible, in order to go to heaven?

Are you asking:

• * What must OT readers do to be saved?
  
  * What must Gospel readers do to be saved? Or,
  
  * What must readers of Paul's epistles do to be saved?

Please clarify?

If AIEC is right, that you can become Christian and do as the Bible says, and still go to hell when you die, then what is the point of Christianity?

Indeed, what is the point of any faith and belief supported only by conjecture and rhetoric? I can read what AIEC claims, but where's the support for that/those claims? Where's the evidence? "Where's the beef?"

[JBlack]

1. What must one do, according to the Bible, in order to go to heaven?

The Bible never indicates that Christians are going to Heaven. In fact it states that Jesus is the only man who who has ever ascended up to Heaven:

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (John 3:13)

The Bible always states that Christians will become members of the Kingdom of God residing within the Kingdom of Heaven. As SpiritQuickens quoted:

Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in Heaven.-Matthew 7:21.

The geographical location Heaven is included within the Kingdom of Heaven, but they are not necessarily the same. The entire kingdom could be much larger than its center or base of activity which is Heaven itself. That is, the ruler is God the Father who rules from heaven. His rule extends over the entire Kingdom of Heaven. This will eventually include the earth which will be ruled by Jesus:

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 11:15)

The earth will once again become part of the Kingdom of Heaven. It will not be heaven, but will be under God's rule and part of the Kingdom of Heaven as is heaven itself. This will occur when Jesus returns to take back control of the earth from Satan. And how long does Jesus our Lord intend to reign on the earth?

The Lord shall reign for ever and ever. (Exodus 15:18)

And what are the born again Christians going to be doing after Jesus' return?

We shall also reign with him. (II Timothy 2:12)

And how long are the born again Christians going to be with the Lord Jesus?

. . . and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

Where will Jesus base His rule and locate His tabernacle to rule the earth? The holy city of new Jerusalem:

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. (Revelation 21:2-3)

Since Jesus is going to rule the earth forever from new Jerusalem, and we will rule with Him, and be with Him forever, where does that place us forever and ever? On the earth!

You make a pretty solid case. I've always assumed Heaven and Kingdom of Heaven meant the same thing. Thanks for the insight.

[myth-one.com]

Ultimately, however, it is God who causes us to believe.

But not some of us as compared to others:

God does not love some people more than others.

For God so loved the world . . .

[JBlack]

Are you asking:


* What must OT readers do to be saved?

* What must Gospel readers do to be saved? Or,

* What must readers of Paul's epistles do to be saved?



Please clarify?

Well, what must someone who believes the Bible to be 100% the Word of God do?

Indeed, what is the point of any faith and belief supported only by conjecture and rhetoric?

Well, with Christians, my understanding has always been that they believe we need Jesus to save us from our sins. By repenting and believing in him, we'll go to heaven. I've always understood this to be the point... But then I encounter Christians who say things like, there's nothing we can do to be saved. Now with these Christians, the whole point is lost.

I can read what AIEC claims, but where's the support for that/those claims? Where's the evidence? "Where's the beef?"

Here's more of AIEC's argument

Salvation is accomplished by God and God alone. Our task as believers is to preach the gospel, the whole bible, in all the world. God has chosen those whom he will save through his divine election for his purposes. There is nothing any man can do to become saved but beg God for mercy unto salvation. Asking for mercy does not guarantee our salvation but this example was given to us by the prayer of the tax collector and the pharisee. God uses two babies as an example of his election process, Jacob and Esau.
Romans 9
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I HATED.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then[/b] it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Here many statements are being made about God and man kind. Notice that before the twins were born, they were elected, one unto salvation the other unto damnation. Also notice that this election took place not because they had done or were going to eventually do any good or evil, but so that God's purpose in election might stand.

Now notice the question being asked and the reply, so why then does God still find fault with us, because who can resist HIS will? The reply, who are we to talk back to God, God has the right to form his creations as he wishes, some for glory and some for destruction, such as Pharaoh.

The problem is not in the soverignty of God, but in some of the statements the bible makes about ways to become saved. But we have to compare everything the bible says about any given topic to arrive at an accurate conclusion. The question is, can God make demands from his creation without his creation being able to obey? Most people logically say, no. But the bible teaches otherwise, For example, the bible says if seek him and you shall find him but it also makes it clear that NO ONE seeks him, the bible says repent, but it is God who grants repentance, the bible says come to me all you who are weary, but it also teaches that NO ONE can come unless drawn by the Father, And again the bible says he who recieves me receives the one who sent me, but it also teaches that no one can receive anything unless it be given him from heaven. So while one one hand some commands may seem clear we get further clarification when we compare all of the scriptures together. The raising of Lazarus is a picture of how we become saved, remember how I posted those verses that stated we all died spiritually because of what Adam did? Well Lazarus is an earthly picture of how we become saved. Before Jesus raises him he says, I am the resurrection and the life. Jesus calls out, Lazarus come forth and Lazarus rose from the dead. this is the same way we are raised from the dead spiritually.

[SpiritQuickens]

Are you asking:


* What must OT readers do to be saved?

* What must Gospel readers do to be saved? Or,

* What must readers of Paul's epistles do to be saved?



Please clarify?

Well, what must someone who believes the Bible to be 100% the Word of God do?

Indeed, what is the point of any faith and belief supported only by conjecture and rhetoric?

Well, with Christians, my understanding has always been that they believe we need Jesus to save us from our sins. By repenting and believing in him, we'll go to heaven. I've always understood this to be the point... But then I encounter Christians who say things like, there's nothing we can do to be saved. Now with these Christians, the whole point is lost.

I can read what AIEC claims, but where's the support for that/those claims? Where's the evidence? "Where's the beef?"

Here's more of AIEC's argument

Salvation is accomplished by God and God alone. Our task as believers is to preach the gospel, the whole bible, in all the world. God has chosen those whom he will save through his divine election for his purposes. There is nothing any man can do to become saved but beg God for mercy unto salvation. Asking for mercy does not guarantee our salvation but this example was given to us by the prayer of the tax collector and the pharisee. God uses two babies as an example of his election process, Jacob and Esau.
Romans 9
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I HATED.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then[/b] it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Here many statements are being made about God and man kind. Notice that before the twins were born, they were elected, one unto salvation the other unto damnation. Also notice that this election took place not because they had done or were going to eventually do any good or evil, but so that God's purpose in election might stand.

Now notice the question being asked and the reply, so why then does God still find fault with us, because who can resist HIS will? The reply, who are we to talk back to God, God has the right to form his creations as he wishes, some for glory and some for destruction, such as Pharaoh.

The problem is not in the soverignty of God, but in some of the statements the bible makes about ways to become saved. But we have to compare everything the bible says about any given topic to arrive at an accurate conclusion. The question is, can God make demands from his creation without his creation being able to obey? Most people logically say, no. But the bible teaches otherwise, For example, the bible says if seek him and you shall find him but it also makes it clear that NO ONE seeks him, the bible says repent, but it is God who grants repentance, the bible says come to me all you who are weary, but it also teaches that NO ONE can come unless drawn by the Father, And again the bible says he who recieves me receives the one who sent me, but it also teaches that no one can receive anything unless it be given him from heaven. So while one one hand some commands may seem clear we get further clarification when we compare all of the scriptures together. The raising of Lazarus is a picture of how we become saved, remember how I posted those verses that stated we all died spiritually because of what Adam did? Well Lazarus is an earthly picture of how we become saved. Before Jesus raises him he says, I am the resurrection and the life. Jesus calls out, Lazarus come forth and Lazarus rose from the dead. this is the same way we are raised from the dead spiritually.

Please ignore what myth-one.com says. He's an annihilationist, and practically everything he says is ridiculous heresy.

[myth-one.com]

Please ignore what myth-one.com says. He's an annihilationist, and practically everything he says is ridiculous heresy.

But I quote scriptures which support what I believe. Should those ridiculous heretical scriptures also be ignored?

Note to moderator: Can he call me that big word "annihilationist" without proof? I have never annihilated anyone!