Pacifism, Jesus said Love your enemies

scottlittlefield17 · Post by **scottlittlefield17** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:22 pm

Did not Jesus mean what he said when he said "Love your enemies" and when he said "If my kingdom where of this world then would my servants fight". You can not love your enemies and kill them. Jesus's kingdom is not of this world therefore "Our struggle is not against flesh and blood but against the rulers against the authorities against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms" Ephesians 6:12. Jesus said to do good to those who hate you! How can you do that and then go to war against them? It just is not possible. I would love to hear your arguments against this and will do my best to answer them.

kayky · Post by **kayky** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:24 pm

I don't think Jesus was teaching against self-defense or defense of one's home or loved ones. Do you?

TXatheist · Post by **TXatheist** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:38 pm

kayky wrote:I don't think Jesus was teaching against self-defense or defense of one's home or loved ones. Do you?

But what about turning the other cheek? He didn't say, "defend yourself."

kayky · Post by **kayky** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:42 pm

Yes, he did say to turn the other cheek. But then he beat everybody up in the temple. So it's kind of confusing.

TXatheist · Post by **TXatheist** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:45 pm

kayky wrote:Yes, he did. But then he beat everybody up in the temple. So it's kind of confusing.

Could you please quote the scriptures where he "beat them up"?

There is also the "do as I say, not as I do" argument. But I would still like to see the scriptures. I do not deny the incident at the temple, I just don't recall the details.

kayky · Post by **kayky** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:58 pm

I was surprised to discover that this story appears only in Mark and Matthew. Jesus knocks over the tables and chairs, and then he drives out the moneychangers. It doesn't really say how he drove them out. But I can't imagine they left peacefully. I remember Sunday school pictures in which Jesus was actually wielding a whip. It sounds like a violent scene, but it's difficult to picture exactly what happened.

TXatheist · Post by **TXatheist** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:02 pm

kayky wrote:I was surprised to discover that this story appears only in Mark and Matthew. Jesus knocks over the tables and chairs, and then he drives out the moneychangers. It doesn't really say how he drove them out. But I can't imagine they left peacefully. I remember Sunday school pictures in which Jesus was actually wielding a whip. It sounds like a violent scene, but it's difficult to picture exactly what happened.

Do you retract your claim that "he beat everybody up in the temple"?

kayky · Post by **kayky** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:10 pm

That was a bit overstated, but I think there is an implication of violence.

TXatheist · Post by **TXatheist** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:15 pm

kayky wrote:That was a bit overstated, but I think there is an implication of violence.

An "implication"? I remember reading that he overturned the tables and chastised them, but I don't remember any actual violence. The bible says nothing about him hitting anyone or even shoving anyone (to the best of my recollection. You may want to go ahead and post the scriptures to back your claim). You are currently making an argument with "I think..."

kayky · Post by **kayky** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:17 pm

Seijun wrote:
An "implication"? I remember reading that he overturned the tables and chastised them, but I don't remember any actual violence. The bible says nothing about him hitting anyone or even shoving anyone (to the best of my recollection. You may want to go ahead and post the scriptures to back your claim). You are currently making an argument with "I think..."

Imagine a temple full of people making good money. What do you think it would take to drive them out?