JW organization.

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to:

-vote
-celebrate birthdays
-celebrate Christmas or Easter
-donate or receive blood transfusions.

And if any JW openly persists in doing these things[edit to add publicly], they will be shunned or disfellowshipped, [edit to add or otherwise admonished or disciplined.]

For debate,

1) what do any of these check-list prohibitions have to do with Christianity?

2) And are any of these prohibitions compatible with the idea of Christian freedom?

3) Are these prohibitions arbitrary or legalistic?

4) And could Jehvoah's Witness as an organization flourish without these particular prohibitions and still honor God?

Please address any or all of the above.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 5 by JehovahsWitness]



[center]The personal choice of not telling anyone what they do[/center]

They will be respected as exercising their personal choice to do so. As long as they do not attempt to tell other people

So, it's ok, as long as you ... shhhhhhhhh. Don't tell anyone.

You can do ANYTHING you like, as long as you don't get found out.


JW free will = Skulking around


____________

Question:

• 
  
  What would happen if someone in authority found out?
  
  

____________

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 66 by polonius.advice]
The account of the many risen Saints appearing to many is an attempt to add another fulfillment of prophecy to the list.

Ezekiel 37:12-14New International Version (NIV)

12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’�

It was an overreach on the authors part, for the obvious reasons.

I can't say that I agree with your assessment. I think it has more to do with sloppy translation than an effort on Matthew's part to fit something into prophecy. The scripture you quote is not a prophecy that would be fulfilled in Jesus' day. It refers to a much later time, so Matthew would have no reason to try and fit that event into any prophecy.

I looked at the original word-for-word translation in an Interlinear Bible:

"the tombs were opened and many bodies of the having fallen asleep saints were raised; and coming forth out of the tombs after the rising of him entered into the holy city and were manifested to many." That's word-for-word, and corresponding to the KJV and others. (Matt.27:53,54, The Interlinear Bible in English, Hebrew & Greek/Hendrickson)

Another rendering of the same verses puts it like this: "and the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the having fallen asleep holy ones were raised up, and [they] having gone forth out of the memorial tombs after the being raised up of him they entered into the holy city and they were made apparent to many." (The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures) This might seem to agree with the other translations, but the Kingdom Interlinear committee chose to word the English rendering like this:

"And the tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up, (and people coming out from among the tombs after his being raised up entered into the holy city) and they became visible to many people."

The thinking on that is this: The tombs were opened up by the earthquake and dead bodies were thrown up out of them--- "raised up"---but not as in a resurrection, and people passing by saw them and went into the city. This thinking is harmonious with all other scriptures, and it is necessary to consider that harmony because Jesus is said to be "the first-fruits of those that would be raised up to go to heaven." (I Corinthians 15:23) So any "saints" that would come back to life could not PRECEDE Jesus' own resurrection.

Therefore, the Kingdom Interlinear is not without integrity.

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[polonius]

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... estaments/

“Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the entire Bible is “inspired of God and beneficial.� (2 Timothy 3:16) That includes both the Old Testament and the New Testament, as they are commonly called. Generally, Jehovah’s Witnesses refer to these sections of the Bible as the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Greek Scriptures. In this way, we avoid giving the impression that some parts of the Bible are outdated or irrelevant.�

JW posted:

There is a difference between something being "inspired" and something being without error. Jehovah inspired men to write down certain thoughts, but they used their own words and their own methods of writing. He didn't dictate every single word.

.

The question is can the Bible be both "God breathed" yet contain errors.

Are you saying that you believe that what God inspires (such as the Bible) may in fact contain errors? And we are thus free to dispute what we believe to be in error?

Do you disagree with these statements regarding scripture?

1. (The bible was written) wholly and entirely, with all their parts, at the dictation of the Holy Ghost; and so far is it from being possible that any error can co-exist with inspiration, that inspiration not only is essentially incompatible with error, but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true.

2. Hence, because the Holy Ghost employed men as His instruments, we cannot therefore say that it was these inspired instruments who, perchance, have fallen into error, and not the primary author. For, by supernatural power, He so moved and impelled them to write-He was so present to them-that the things which He ordered, and those only, they, first, rightly understood, then willed faithfully to write down, and finally expressed in apt words and with infallible truth. Otherwise, it could not be said that He was the Author of the entire Scripture.

[onewithhim]

Matthew 2: 16 When Herod realized that he had been deceived by the magi, he became furious. He ordered the massacre of all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had ascertained from the magi.17Then was fulfilled what had been said through Jeremiah the prophet:
18* “A voice was heard in Ramah, sobbing and loud lamentation; Rachel weeping for her children, and she would not be consoled, since they were no more.�

Once again we have an “inspired’ but false prophecy fulfillment.

Jeremiah 31 portrays Rachel, wife of the patriarch Jacob, weeping for her children taken into exile at the time of the Assyrian invasion of the northern kingdom (722–21 B.C.). So this dealt with an event 700 years earlier than the birth of Jesus.

It has also been calculated that in 1 AD there were only about 300 people living in Bethlehem, so the number of males under 2 years killed could only have been 3 to 6 infants. On the other hand, aside from Matthew's claim, there is not other record of such a claimed massacre, not in Luke's Nativity Narrative, or Josephus' History of the Jewish People.

Still, there are those who argue that we must consider the Bible to be the revealed word of God. If true, then we can document that God makes many mistakes.

Shall I continue? Right now I'm only dealing with Matthew's story.

I might have missed something. Did anyone actually say that the guesses by the WTS concerning the resurrection of the ancient fathers, 1914, and 1975 were "inspired"? I don't think that the brothers, even at that time, would say their opinions were "inspired."


.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 89 by polonius.advice]

I don't think that Jehovah'sWitness was saying that the size of an organization reflects its accuracy in doctrine and teachings. Jesus said that "FEW would be on the narrow road to life." (Matt.7:14)


.

[polonius]

Matthew 2: 16 When Herod realized that he had been deceived by the magi, he became furious. He ordered the massacre of all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had ascertained from the magi.17Then was fulfilled what had been said through Jeremiah the prophet:
18* “A voice was heard in Ramah, sobbing and loud lamentation; Rachel weeping for her children, and she would not be consoled, since they were no more.�

Once again we have an “inspired’ but false prophecy fulfillment.

Jeremiah 31 portrays Rachel, wife of the patriarch Jacob, weeping for her children taken into exile at the time of the Assyrian invasion of the northern kingdom (722–21 B.C.). So this dealt with an event 700 years earlier than the birth of Jesus.

It has also been calculated that in 1 AD there were only about 300 people living in Bethlehem, so the number of males under 2 years killed could only have been 3 to 6 infants. On the other hand, aside from Matthew's claim, there is not other record of such a claimed massacre, not in Luke's Nativity Narrative, or Josephus' History of the Jewish People.

Still, there are those who argue that we must consider the Bible to be the revealed word of God. If true, then we can document that God makes many mistakes.

Shall I continue? Right now I'm only dealing with Matthew's story.

I might have missed something. Did anyone actually say that the guesses by the WTS concerning the resurrection of the ancient fathers, 1914, and 1975 were "inspired"? I don't think that the brothers, even at that time, would say their opinions were "inspired."


.

QUESTION: For clarification, what is the WTS?

[onewithhim]

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... estaments/

“Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the entire Bible is “inspired of God and beneficial.� (2 Timothy 3:16) That includes both the Old Testament and the New Testament, as they are commonly called. Generally, Jehovah’s Witnesses refer to these sections of the Bible as the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Greek Scriptures. In this way, we avoid giving the impression that some parts of the Bible are outdated or irrelevant.�

JW posted:

There is a difference between something being "inspired" and something being without error. Jehovah inspired men to write down certain thoughts, but they used their own words and their own methods of writing. He didn't dictate every single word.

.

The question is can the Bible be both "God breathed" yet contain errors.

Are you saying that you believe that what God inspires (such as the Bible) may in fact contain errors? And we are thus free to dispute what we believe to be in error?

Do you disagree with these statements regarding scripture?

1. (The bible was written) wholly and entirely, with all their parts, at the dictation of the Holy Ghost; and so far is it from being possible that any error can co-exist with inspiration, that inspiration not only is essentially incompatible with error, but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true.

2. Hence, because the Holy Ghost employed men as His instruments, we cannot therefore say that it was these inspired instruments who, perchance, have fallen into error, and not the primary author. For, by supernatural power, He so moved and impelled them to write-He was so present to them-that the things which He ordered, and those only, they, first, rightly understood, then willed faithfully to write down, and finally expressed in apt words and with infallible truth. Otherwise, it could not be said that He was the Author of the entire Scripture.

Jehovah'sWitness did not post the above about the Bible being inspired but not dictated. That was me.

Yes, I believe that what God inspires may contain errors, as ANYTHING that men do will contain errors.

Above, your number 1 says that God "uttered" the Bible texts. I don't believe that, as I said in my post #88. Your #2 spars with the idea that Jehovah is the author of the Bible. That is nit-picking at its best. If He hadn't inspired it, it would not have been written. Period. Therefore, whether men have made errors or not in transcribing the thoughts, Jehovah is the Author.


.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 96 by polonius.advice]

"WTS" means the Watchtower Society.


.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 92 by onewithhim]



[center]

Oh, those sloppy Joes.[/center]

I can't say that I agree with your assessment. I think it has more to do with sloppy translation

Its wonderful that we have such an non-sloppy Bible translator among us. MOST other Bible translators clearly write "PROPHECY".

I hate sloppy Bible translators, don't you?

[hoghead1]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Oh, c'mon. Statements such as the following are right out of teh annuals of Nazi anti-Semitic propaganda:

"The greatest and most oppressive empire on earth is the Anglo-American empire. By that is meant the British Empire, of which the United States of America forms a part. It has been the commercial Jews of the British-American empire that have built up and carried on Big Business as a means of exploiting and oppressing the peoples of many nations. This fact particularly applies to the cities of London and New York, the stronghold of Big Business. This fact is so manifest in America that there is a proverb concerning the city of New York which says: `The Jews own it, the Irish Catholics rule it, and the Americans pay the bills."