If the Trinity is an eternal truth..

[Elijah John]

If the Trinity is an eternal truth, and God was always Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (even well before the incarnation), why isn't that doctrine found in the "Old" Testament, the Hebrew Bible?

Instead we have "Hear O Israel, YHVH our God, YHVH is One". (Deuteronomy 6.4) And that proclamation was to be recited by YHVH's people every day in prayer, multiple times.

[PinSeeker]

• "But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in My name, it will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." [John 14:26]

Some want to distinguish between a personal and impersonal pronoun here to say that the Spirit (or spirit) spoken of is another person (or impersonal object), but it's a distinction without difference. In most all translations, the Greek pronoun �κεῖνος (ekeinos) is rendered as 'he' rather than 'it.' But the Greek word used there merely means "that one," or properly, "the one there," so the word can be rendered in English as 'it' or 'he' depending on the context. Jesus is clearly and unmistakably referring to a third personal entity other than God the Father or Himself as the Son, so 'he' in the English is the more appropriate translation here.

This is the same anointing of holy spirit that is spoken about here:

• "As for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as His anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit -- just as it has taught you, remain in Him. [1 John 2:27]

I wholeheartedly agree that the anointing (giving, or conferral) is spoken of by John here. John's use of the pronoun �κεῖνος (ekeinos) is exactly the same as Jesus's in John 14:26, but John is speaking of an impersonal thing -- an act of God the Father. This in and of itself, is impersonal (although admiinistered personally by the Father), so 'it' is the proper English translation. None of this treads in any way upon the fact that the One with Whom we are anointed, God's Holy Spirit, is a distinct Person besides God the Father and God the Son. Again, the anointing spoken of by John here is God's giving (conferral) of the Holy Spirit -- the third Person of our Triune God -- to believers.

Grace and peace to all.

[Yahwehismywitness]

[Replying to post 80 by PinSeeker]

God's Holy Spirit, is a distinct Person besides God the Father and God the Son. Again, the anointing spoken of by John here is God's giving (conferral) of the Holy Spirit -- the third Person of our Triune God -- to believers.

Yahweh is trying to make it a family connection. Father we are given his spirit of truth that is part of him, Fathers share DNA not a separate being that was given to his son which we become sisters and brothers with. If you separate into 3 separate spirits they remain separate. Jesus is King not the Father or a God. There is only one Father and one God Yahweh

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

Abode means place of residence

[Elijah John]

We've gotten replies supporting each side, whether the Trinity is real or not. But let me rephrase the OP just a bit.

a) Is the Trinity eternal in the sense that God has always existed in Three Persons?

b) If so, why wasn't that truth explicitly taught in the "Old" Testament? If the Trinity is eternal, then God existed as a Trinity in the days of the Patriarchs and Prophets. So why wasn't it taught in those days? Why did God save "revelation" of that essential doctrine for later?

c) Or is it a fact that while the Trinity is eternal, the notion of the Trinity was only formulated after Jesus' death and resurrection?

d) Or is the absence of any notion of the Trinity in the Old Testament evidence that the Trinity is simply a theological construct, and not revelation at all?

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 82 by Elijah John]

D on that. Total construct.

[brianbbs67]

And I would add, that belief in a trinity matters not to a belief in God. He says He is One. Duet 6.

[Yahwehismywitness]

If it is true why did the original Mathew 28:19 read:

For he did not enjoin them to make disciples of all nations simply and without qualification, but with the essential addition "in his name". For great virtue attached to his appellation that the Apostle says, Yahweh bestowed on him the name above every name, that in the name of Yeshua every knee shall bow of things in heaven and under the earth. It was right therefore that he should emphasize the virtue of power residing in his name but hidden from many, and therefore say to his Apostles, Goye, and make disciples of all nations in my name.

If it is true why did Pauline Christians of Catholic church burn Ebion (the poor) documents and persecute them? Polycarp,[3] the last known living connection with the Apostles, who in turn was said to have heard John the Evangelist. burned and stabbed. Murdered all representatives of Jesus no wonder he said they were murderers from the beginning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycarp

[PinSeeker]

"Is the Trinity eternal in the sense that God has always existed in Three Persons?"

Absolutely.

"If so, why wasn't that truth explicitly taught in the "Old" Testament? If the Trinity is eternal, then God existed as a Trinity in the days of the Patriarchs and Prophets. So why wasn't it taught in those days? Why did God save "revelation" of that essential doctrine for later?

This is a great question. Yes, it was taught in the Old Testament, beginning in Genesis 1. At the very least, we see that God exists in a plurality of Persons; the only possible question is "okay, at least two, but how many?" But it must be understood that, generally speaking, the Old Testament establishes principles that are seen to be illustrative of New Testament truths, and the Old Testament establishes truths that are more fully fleshed out in the New Testament:

• Genesis 1:26 -- "Then God said, 'Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth"
  
  Genesis 3:22 -- "Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever."
  
  Genesis 11:7 -- "Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech"
  
  Isaiah 6:8 -- "Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, 'Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then I said, 'Here am I. Send me.' "
  
  Isaiah 54:5 -- "For your Maker is your husband, the LORD of hosts is his name; the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, the God of the whole earth he is called." (the English word "Maker" is plural in Hebrew)
  
  Isaiah 48:16-17 -- "Come near me and listen to this: 'From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there. "And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, with his Spirit . This is what the LORD says - your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go." (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are all seen here)

"Or is it a fact that while the Trinity is eternal, the notion of the Trinity was only formulated after Jesus' death and resurrection?

Well, the doctrine of the Trinity was not clearly formulated until after the New Testament was written, but there are anticipations of the doctrine in the Old Testament, as seen above.

...is the absence of any notion of the Trinity in the Old Testament evidence that the Trinity is simply a theological construct, and not revelation at all?

It's not absent by any stretch of the imagination. See above.

Grace and peace to all.

[Yahwehismywitness]

Isaiah 48:16-17 -- "Come near me and listen to this: 'From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there. "And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, with his Spirit . This is what the LORD says - your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go." (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are all seen here)

Are you now trying to make Isaiah a God? Let me ask you a question is your spirit separate from your body or is it in you?

Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. Matthew 23:9 This means do not call spirit or Isaiah same name.

[polonius]

When and where is the Trinity first mentioned in scripture?

[Yahwehismywitness]

[Replying to post 88 by polonius]

It is not in my opinion

Paul's Belief in a Duality of A Creator-Jesus versus A Pre-Existing Yahweh Who Only Created Jesus caused the problem
https://jesuswordsonly.com/recommendedr ... -paul.html