How do they KNOW?

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:09 am

There is scant evidence in the Gospels that Jesus was sinless and perfect. By contrast, Jesus perfection is explicitly claimed by the authors of the Epistles.

For debate, how could they possibly know that Jesus was perfect, and never sinned in thought, word or deed? Were they witnesses to his mind? And to his every word and deed from childhood?

Isn't the claim that Jesus was perfect and sinless simply theological speculation?

Waterfall · Post by **Waterfall** » Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:37 am

[Replying to post 79 by PinSeeker]

If Jesus were born today, He would ultimately be killed, thus satisfying God's justice on our behalf, just like He did 2000+ years ago.

If Jesus were to go to Saudi Arabia and tell them that they were not living a good life then they might kill him, but here in denmark he would have to step out infront of a car. Before he did that he would have to explain a lot of things. It is not everybody who would kill Jesus. You seem to be saying that someone has to disobey God's will to do God's will? Do you think I should kill Jesus?

But do you want to? If you want to, God will begin making you more like Jesus.

What about making me more like this man

I think he is doing a good job.

That's all Jesus got, right?

But if God wants us to become christians then he can just let us be born again and again? What do God want?

Don't compare them in the way you are trying to compare them. Writing a chronological narrative is quite different than treating subjects topically. Don't get bogged down in all that. Just assume that the Gospels are relating the same general message in different ways (which they are) and treat them independently. They are complementary, but not rigidly the same, if that makes sense. And what you should do in reading each one is not just to know about Jesus, but to know Him, as in a very close relationship/friendship. If you seek, you will find.

I understand that Mark and Matthew are talking about the same thing...the fig tree. But if Mark is saying it happent on a monday and Matthew is saying it happent on a tuesday then there is a problem. Did it happen on a monday and on a tuesday? Did it happen at all? Does it matter? You seem to get something out of the story.

PinSeeker · Post by **PinSeeker** » Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:44 am

Waterfall wrote: ...here in Denmark he would have to step out in front of a car. Before he did that he would have to explain a lot of things. It is not everybody who would kill Jesus.

You far, far underestimate the human condition.

Waterfall wrote: Do you think I should kill Jesus?

Your sin has already done that. Mine, too. But my Redeemer lives.

Waterfall wrote: What about making me more like this man

I think he is doing a good job.

I think he's a fairly good motivational speaker.

Waterfall wrote: I understand that Mark and Matthew are talking about the same thing...the fig tree.

Yes, they are talking about the same thing. But it's really not about the fig tree; the fig tree is just an illustration. It's really about people. Some are fruitful, and some are fruitless.

Waterfall wrote: But if Mark is saying it happent on a monday and Matthew is saying it happent on a tuesday then there is a problem.

Right, but this is not the case.

Waterfall wrote: Did it happen at all?

Yes.

Waterfall wrote: Does it matter?

Yes.

Waterfall wrote: You seem to get something out of the story.

Thanks be to God. See above.

Grace and peace to you, Waterfall.

Waterfall · Post by **Waterfall** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:21 am

[Replying to post 81 by PinSeeker]

Thank you for a good conversation PinSeeker.

Before we go on...may I ask this...how did you become Christian? Have you always been Christian? Just curious.

You far, far underestimate the human condition.

Meaning?

Your sin has already done that. Mine, too. But my Redeemer lives.

How is that? If I would not kill Jesus then how could he be killed? There are things that I would not do.

I think he's a fairly good motivational speaker.

He is just a great man

I love to watch him and listen to him.

Yes, they are talking about the same thing. But it's really not about the fig tree; the fig tree is just an illustration. It's really about people. Some are fruitful, and some are fruitless.

Sometimes it is fig time...sometimes it is not fig time

Right, but this is not the case.

Maybe you are right...

I have to read the story again.

PinSeeker · Post by **PinSeeker** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:12 am

Waterfall wrote: Before we go on...may I ask this...how did you become Christian? Have you always been Christian? Just curious.

Well, I'm not going to bore you with the whole story, but I became a Christian because God made me one. He revealed Himself to me, and thus caused me to be born again to a living hope. Individual experiences vary, of course, but this is true of every Christian. No, I have not always been a Christian. Nobody can say that. Some can say that they never knew a day when they didn't believe in Christ as their Savior. I am not one of those, but that doesn't make me less a Christian, or more.

Waterfall wrote:
You far, far underestimate the human condition.
Meaning?

Our natural condition, as human beings, is totally sinful. In this way, the natural person, from birth, is spiritually dead. It may sound harsh and possibly "over the top," but it's true.

Waterfall wrote:
Your sin has already done that. Mine, too. But my Redeemer lives.
How is that? If I would not kill Jesus then how could he be killed? There are things that I would not do.

Jesus died because of sin. Yours, mine, all sin. In that way, we are all responsible for His death. This was to satisfy God's justice on our behalf. Imagine that. Because God SO LOVED the world, He gave His only son. Himself, in the Person of Jesus. For us. It would seem that we would all respond to that, but unfortunately, some will not. My advice to you is to not be one of those who do not.

Waterfall wrote: I love to watch him and listen to him.

He's entertaining.

Waterfall wrote: Sometimes it is fig time...sometimes it is not fig time

Well, some will bear good fruit, and some will not. If they do, it is because of God and the work of His Spirit in their hearts.

But I say again, if you are really interested, then seek, and you will find.

Grace and peace to you, Waterfall.

Avoice · Post by **Avoice** » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:30 am

Haaa

Christians want to believe Isaiah 7:14 is about Jesus. The passage that reads in a Christian Bible: behold a virgin will conceive and bare a son..." It isn't.about Jesus. But if they want to say it is then they have to accept what else it says about that kid. It says before the child knows to refuse the evil and choose good etc etc.

Then according to their rediculous belief that Isaiah 7:14 is about Jesus then heh wasn't sinless and perfect. If he was perfect he would have known how to refuse evil since birth. But that's not the case here

PinSeeker · Post by **PinSeeker** » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:03 am

[Replying to post 84 by Avoice]

Ahhhh, so many words and so little understanding... Come on, Avoice, you can do better than that, can't you? No, just about every post from you so reminds me of MacBeth's speech, "Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow" (Shakespeare). This is no exception.

Grace and peace to you, Avoice.

Post by **Tcg** » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:14 am

PinSeeker wrote:
Our natural condition, as human beings, is totally sinful.

You can make that claim for yourself if you like. You can't make that claim for me as it wouldn't be true.

Tcg

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:18 am

Tcg wrote:
PinSeeker wrote:
Our natural condition, as human beings, is totally sinful.

You can make that claim for yourself if you like. You can't make that claim for me as it wouldn't be true.

Tcg

Indeed, "totally sinful" would mean that people never ever do good, always sin and do evil, and never love or have compassion.

"Totally sinful, and totally depraved" are notions that do not square with reality.

Post by **Tcg** » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:23 am

Elijah John wrote:
Tcg wrote:
PinSeeker wrote:
Our natural condition, as human beings, is totally sinful.

You can make that claim for yourself if you like. You can't make that claim for me as it wouldn't be true.

Tcg
Indeed, "totally sinful" would mean that people never ever do good, always sin and do evil, and never love or have compassion.

"Totally sinful, and totally depraved" are notions that do not square with reality.

I agree. It seems as if these ideas are required to support a certain approach to Christian theology. A theology that as you say, doesn't square with reality.

Tcg

Waterfall · Post by **Waterfall** » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:42 pm

[Replying to post 83 by PinSeeker]

Well, I'm not going to bore you with the whole story, but I became a Christian because God made me one. He revealed Himself to me, and thus caused me to be born again to a living hope. Individual experiences vary, of course, but this is true of every Christian. No, I have not always been a Christian. Nobody can say that. Some can say that they never knew a day when they didn't believe in Christ as their Savior. I am not one of those, but that doesn't make me less a Christian, or more.

Thank you PinSeeker. The first book I found interest in was Bhagavad Gita (the Hare Krishna movement). I was smoking hashid and had a friend who had the book and borrowed it from him. It is a long time ago...29 years. Now I am 49 years and have been through life. Long story.

To bad that I did not meet Sadhguru when I was 20 years old

This was the first institution he visit in his "Youth and Truth" campain.

Our natural condition, as human beings, is totally sinful. In this way, the natural person, from birth, is spiritually dead. It may sound harsh and possibly "over the top," but it's true.

Hmm...

Jesus died because of sin. Yours, mine, all sin. In that way, we are all responsible for His death. This was to satisfy God's justice on our behalf. Imagine that. Because God SO LOVED the world, He gave His only son. Himself, in the Person of Jesus. For us. It would seem that we would all respond to that, but unfortunately, some will not. My advice to you is to not be one of those who do not.

That must be because I would not kill Jesus. He died because of one sin...killing. It was not me stealing a piece of cake from him that killed him.

He's entertaining.

I would love to see him in a panel with Christians talking about life

But what should the topic be?

Well, some will bear good fruit, and some will not. If they do, it is because of God and the work of His Spirit in their hearts.

But I say again, if you are really interested, then seek, and you will find.

I searched the fig tree and found this:

http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2 ... ident.html

Here in denmark people have problems with this story to and the priests tries to explain it:

https://www.religion.dk/sp%C3%B8rg-om-k ... %C3%A5elig

It is an Christian newspaper and the headline is this: When Jesus becomes incomprehensible.

And then a question from a women: I can't really find head and tail in the Bible text about the curse of the fig tree. Is it to be understod so, that Jesus has the power to get the tree to wither and so proffs that he is something speciel? Or is it the tree that loses faith in bearing fruit and therefore wither? Or what is it about?

Then a priest answer. You may have to learn danish. But he is talking about the fig tree being Jerusalem.

If you ever learn danish then visit this website:

https://www.biblen.info/

It is a very humorous website. The Bible for atheist. He has a guest book were people can write and sometimes Christians try to teach him about the Bible. Anyway...here is his take on the fig tree:

https://www.biblen.info/Bibelen-figen.htm

https://www.biblen.info/Selvmodsigelse.php?id=173

Just if you know some danish people who can translate it for you.

My point is just that I have tried to understand it.

How do other people read this story?

Now I will drink some beers and relax and "listen" to some music

Best regard or namaste