When the Bible does not promote or condone, then what?

[micatala]

This thread is prompted by the often-made statement.

I have asked you to provide any evidence "from the Bible" (since you have offered that you are a priest), where sodomy/perderasty-homosexuality-Gay, is celebrated, supported, condoned, promoted, or preached as acceptable, anywhere in the New Testament

The implication is that, since the Bible nowhere promotes, condones, or 'celebrates' homosexuality, this is further indication it should be condemned.

Question for debate:

Is this a valid conclusion?

Are there other examples of behaviors, views, etc. that are not promoted, condoned, or celebrated in the Bible, but that Christians typically do not condemn?

[Suzanne]

It is not the task of our government and elected representatives to enshrine in our laws the religious point of view of any one faith. Many of the diverse religions in America define marriage differently; and our government should dedicate itself to protecting the rights of all citizens and all faiths. The Federal Marriage Amendment would dignify discrimination and undermine religious liberty.

People who don't make victims by the use of their sexuality, should not be prohibited from using it as they see fit.

Suzanne,

I understand limiting sex to no children (or metally challenged), no animals... since it is not consensual; no immediate family members (genetic problems). I think even as far out to "cousin", is too close a genetic match in most cases? And of course, sexual intimacy within a family can cause other problems (emotionally) which have nothing to do with sex itself.

Multiple wives/husbands? Can that individual likely LOVE and take care of ALL of them properly?

Ultimately, I would agree that homosexuality perhaps seems unusual to many people, but it is NOT uncommon, and it doesn't necessarily generate victims (unless a forced criminal act, or a form of statutory rape is perpetrated).

Heterosexuality brings with it a list of problems also, that should be at the top of America's list. There are many "family" problems that exist, and have absolutely nothing to do with "homosexuality"; in fact, the overwhelming majority of "family" issues are known to have little or nothing to do with homosexuality.

But sunce the thread is about what the Bible does/doesn't condone, I'll stop there.

If BY FAITH a person makes a choice, then unless it has somehow infringed upon the rights of another (or is a crime), it should be between that person, their conscience and whatever god they believe in. People are free to interpret the Bible for themselves, but they are NOT free to IMPOSE their biblical interpretations upon others unless it is authorized or mandated BY LAW (secular).

The Bible is relevent to an individual, to the degree which they adhere by faith; and not all believe in what the the Bible says, and certainly not in the same ways. (Might be nice if they did, but it remains to be seen if they ever will.)

-Mel-

YOU EVER SEEN the THREE MONKEY'S

IF ONE SEES NO EVIL , HEARS NO EVIL, THEN I GUESS THERE CAN BE NO EVIL SPOKEN EITHER HUH??

GUESS WHAT I AM NOT A MONKY// WOODEN ONES OR A LIVE ONE THAT CLIMBS UP TREES AND EATS BANANAS AND HANGS BY IT'S TAIL EITHER.

APES???? DON'T THINK SO.. YET ALL one has to do is HAVE EARS to hear EYES TO SEE and THE WORD TO READ to know that EVIL EXISTS, SIN IS DONE, and THE WORD DOES GET SPOKEN. AND FAITH IN THAT WORD THAT WAS GOD IS GOD AND WILL ALWAYS BE GOD. FOR HIS WORD AND HIS KINGDOM AND HIS TRUTH CANNOT EVER BE DENIED ..

NOT IF ONE BELIEVES IN THE SHED BLOOD OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON WE CALL JESUS THE CHRIST .... AND THE SCRIPTURES ARE THE VERY WORDS THAT ARE WRITTEN OF HIM AND ABOUT HIM....

DENY THE ONLY BEGOTTEN CHRIST JESUS IF YOU CHOOSE.. BUT IN DOING SO YOU DENY THE BLOOD AND ALSO DENY THE FATHER ... FOR THIS YOU ALSO DENY THE HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM THE LORD and THE FAITH THAT MANY CHRISTIANS LIVE BY... YOU FIGURE IT OUT if YOU CAN'T YOU WILL SOMEDAY ... KNOW..........NO MATERIAL THING IS GOING TO BE TAKEN WITH YOU REMEMBER THAT BUT WHAT YOU LEAVE BEHIND??????? WHO WILL GET THAT????? AND WILL THEY EVEN WANT IT???????? PROBABLY NOT.... MY DESCENDANTS ALREADY HAVE MOST OF WHAT I WANTED THEM TO HAVE.THAT IS MATERIAL THINGS AS FOR MY MEMORIES I LEAVE WITH THEM?????? ALL GOOD MOSTLY THANKS BE TO GOD.. AND ALL GLORY BE HIS.. AMEN???????????

[melikio]

DENY THE ONLY BEGOTTEN CHRIST JESUS IF YOU CHOOSE.. BUT IN DOING SO YOU DENY THE BLOOD AND ALSO DENY THE FATHER ... FOR THIS YOU ALSO DENY THE HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM THE LORD and THE FAITH THAT MANY CHRISTIANS LIVE BY... YOU FIGURE IT OUT if YOU CAN'T YOU WILL SOMEDAY ...

Suzanne,

(I don't know how to respond to you; really.) I'll just share what is on my heart, at this very moment (unfiltered):

Peace be to you, in Christ.

I don't have any answers for you or anyone else. I going from moment-to-moment by grace.

There are enough arguments, and practically no time to participate in them all.

I know what's on my heart, and I cannot communicate it any more "fully" than I already have to many who read and post here.

I believe there is more to this reality than ANY of us can describe (even those who believe in the Bible.)

Limited knowledge is what I possess; and if I see any of the following:

...love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control...

It blesses me, and I have blessed others with the same; I know I have seen/done something that is right.

Even so, I DO NOT expect perfection from ANY human being; to expect it, is nothing but disappointment; a massive letdown.

I'd rather you see me as a sinner, and go from there period. I don't have the "pretty" Christian posture to hand you, made up and presented to you for standard consumption; it just doesn't exist. If you know me (as Jesus always has), then you will see the ugly parts (flaws, imperfections, failures, wrondoings and other things I have typically tried to get right over time); that is what you'll see.

If you can't live with that, or bear to see it, ignore me and move on. Too often, I and many others over the ceturies, have had their back RIDDEN by those who "religion" was "imposed", rather than presented for "consideration". And without a doubt, that is why Jesus has been accepted by the lowest of the low, because He did NOT PUSH a damned thing upon anyone... He offered it with an open hand, wrapped in UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.

So, yes... I'm quite DOOMED in the "biblical" sense. I don't deny it, and I don't pretend I've got it covered, not one iota. Still, I have seen joy and love in my life (go figure). And no, I'm not out in the world doing any and everything I WANT to do; I know the value to self-restraint, to see the well-being of others as more important than my own. No, I'm not perfect at it, and those who know me (especially Jesus), realize I'm not also.

Yeah... I'm really tired of "Christians" who have bought in to the idea that they are special "enforcers" of the "faith"; when they are no more than the same sinners redeemed by GRACE as they lowest of the low. Often, THE PERSON WHO SPEAKS THE LOUDEST FOR GOD, is NOT the person who serves most excellently.

We can all "improve" in some ways, but it's not my place (or anyone else's) to compel in another, that which only God can accomplish from the inside of any given person. Something is wrong if that is done; no matter how "right" it is rationalized to be (even using the Bible).

-Mel-

[Suzanne]

DENY THE ONLY BEGOTTEN CHRIST JESUS IF YOU CHOOSE.. BUT IN DOING SO YOU DENY THE BLOOD AND ALSO DENY THE FATHER ... FOR THIS YOU ALSO DENY THE HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM THE LORD and THE FAITH THAT MANY CHRISTIANS LIVE BY... YOU FIGURE IT OUT if YOU CAN'T YOU WILL SOMEDAY ...

Suzanne,

(I don't know how to respond to you; really.) I'll just share what is on my heart, at this very moment (unfiltered):

Peace be to you, in Christ.

I don't have any answers for you or anyone else. I going from moment-to-moment by grace.

There are enough arguments, and practically no time to participate in them all.

I know what's on my heart, and I cannot communicate it any more "fully" than I already have to many who read and post here.

I believe there is more to this reality than ANY of us can describe (even those who believe in the Bible.)

Limited knowledge is what I possess; and if I see any of the following:

...love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control...

It blesses me, and I have blessed others with the same; I know I have seen/done something that is right.

Even so, I DO NOT expect perfection from ANY human being; to expect it, is nothing but disappointment; a massive letdown.

I'd rather you see me as a sinner, and go from there period. I don't have the "pretty" Christian posture to hand you, made up and presented to you for standard consumption; it just doesn't exist. If you know me (as Jesus always has), then you will see the ugly parts (flaws, imperfections, failures, wrondoings and other things I have typically tried to get right over time); that is what you'll see.

If you can't live with that, or bear to see it, ignore me and move on. Too often, I and many others over the ceturies, have had their back RIDDEN by those who "religion" was "imposed", rather than presented for "consideration". And without a doubt, that is why Jesus has been accepted by the lowest of the low, because He did NOT PUSH a damned thing upon anyone... He offered it with an open hand, wrapped in UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.

So, yes... I'm quite DOOMED in the "biblical" sense. I don't deny it, and I don't pretend I've got it covered, not one iota. Still, I have seen joy and love in my life (go figure). And no, I'm not out in the world doing any and everything I WANT to do; I know the value to self-restraint, to see the well-being of others as more important than my own. No, I'm not perfect at it, and those who know me (especially Jesus), realize I'm not also.

Yeah... I'm really tired of "Christians" who have bought in to the idea that they are special "enforcers" of the "faith"; when they are no more than the same sinners redeemed by GRACE as they lowest of the low. Often, THE PERSON WHO SPEAKS THE LOUDEST FOR GOD, is NOT the person who serves most excellently.

We can all "improve" in some ways, but it's not my place (or anyone else's) to compel in another, that which only God can accomplish from the inside of any given person. Something is wrong if that is done; no matter how "right" it is rationalized to be (even using the Bible).

-Mel-

You speak from the heart . well so do I, I speak what i know God has done for me in my life also. PERFECTION NO ABSOLUTELY NOT. NONE ARE PERFECT I HAVE always seems to be known this. and TO SAY YOU OR I either one is PERFECT would be one hell of a lie huh?

SEEMS That YOU NEITHER UNDERSTAND me and APPARENTLY YOU HAVE MISSED the whole point I am saying and making. SO we will just leave it at that. I DO NOT WANT TO PUSH RELIGION DOWN ANYONES THROAT. what I really want is TO LOVE people I find it immposible to live around. BECAUSE they GOSSIP LIE CHEAT AND HURT OTHERS with their melishious ness. all because they have nothing better to do. this is why I have spent most of my life with few friends and not intermingling with people that much. BECAUSE HONESTY and BOLDNESS about truth and the reality of THE TRUTH is not easiliy accepted by very few. I HAVE LOVED GOD AND LOVED PEOPLE because I understand that people are all THE LORDS not just me and yes that means the HOMOSEXUALS also but that neither makes their sin right does it. NO and all the liars and murderers and thieves and all of us ARE no better and no worse then the next . YET WE continue to hurt one another with our disagreements and argueing. and it is all JUST A USELESS RANT ISN'T IT when you think about it. so what are you doing in here if nnot to either make YOUR POINT JUST as I am in here to make mine. AND if neither of us can agree and make either see the others side and point then what are either of us doing??? DO YOU HAVE ANY ANSWER FOR THAT??????????????????I DON"T SO GUESS the QUESTION and ANSWER is done for us HUH??? BECAUSE WE CANNOT EVEN AGREE TO JUST TO AGREE TO DISAGREE AND EXCEPT EACH OTHER AS WE ARE HUH?????????? I think that is really sad for us both as two people . AS FOR THE LORD sad day for HIM ALSO I WOULD SAY wouldn't you.... NOW AS for LOVE FORGIVENESS and JUST PLAIN BEING people and children of OUR LORD GOD ALMIGHTY HEAVENLY FATHER .. well CALL HIM ANYTHING YOU WANT TO I REALLY do not care I CALL HIM LORD ... and yes HE is MY FATHER IN HEAVEN .. IF there is no resurrection then MY ANCESTERS ALL ARE LOST forever and so am i and you.

[melikio]

YET WE continue to hurt one another with our disagreements and argueing. and it is all JUST A USELESS RANT ISN'T IT when you think about it.

Yeah, it often ends up that way, unless we just allow unconditional love and/or the Golden Rule to be of primary importance; I'm certain it's the most consistent way for people to get along in this world.

People can/will argue about most anything. Religion and politics are the two most difficult things in the world to discuss (imho); unless people really put caring about others before themselves. And let's face it, even people who mean well philosophically, have the hardest time accepting the being "right" isn't necessarily enough (as anyone who has had a deep relationship with anyone will tell you).

If we were all computers (same make and model), we would ALL read and process the "Bible" and other data, in almost the exact same way/s. But since we are all "human", the possible variables related to beliefs and perceptions are myriad. One example that people tend to play down too readily, is the reality that there are more "Christian" denominations or churches than most people could ever list from memory. And more than a few differ widely on what are considered by many to be "foundational" issues.

http://adherents.com/

I personally believe that is either what God has allowed (for purposes beyond our comprehension), or it is something which occured simply as a result of human "nature" itself. I really don't know, but "faith" allows me to endure the "differences" I have with others, via "love". If not for that, WHY should anyone who thinks differently NOT be strung up as a HERETIC or INFIDEL (according to my interpretation of "truth")?

If homosexual marriage isn't to be "tolerated", why give an inch on "divorce"? There should be no remarriage, unless we can prove it's biblically "sanctioned". I mean, these ARE the absolutes some would KILL to enforce; history can (and is) repeating itself right before our eyes.

IF every word in the Bible is from "God", then we have all surely misunderstood MUCH. And I think we have. So that is also why I believe that Jesus came to show people THE MOST EXCELLENT WAY.

That "way" is "love" (1Cor13; and other examples given by the Savior).

The world is full of PUSHY and dangerous religion (Middle East, again a perfect example), I sincerely hope that people learn more of what matters period (at the heart level).

Love, is superior to religion/politics/power... because it speaks to the human heart in a way that nothing else is capable of doing. That is exactly why people who know little of "religion" can indeed know and care about the teaching of Jesus Christ.

-Mel-

[Suzanne]

YET WE continue to hurt one another with our disagreements and argueing. and it is all JUST A USELESS RANT ISN'T IT when you think about it.

Yeah, it often ends up that way, unless we just allow unconditional love and/or the Golden Rule to be of primary importance; I'm certain it's the most consistent way for people to get along in this world.

People can/will argue about most anything. Religion and politics are the two most difficult things in the world to discuss (imho); unless people really put caring about others before themselves. And let's face it, even people who mean well philosophically, have the hardest time accepting the being "right" isn't necessarily enough (as anyone who has had a deep relationship with anyone will tell you).

If we were all computers (same make and model), we would ALL read and process the "Bible" and other data, in almost the exact same way/s. But since we are all "human", the possible variables related to beliefs and perceptions are myriad. One example that people tend to play down too readily, is the reality that there are more "Christian" denominations or churches than most people could ever list from memory. And more than a few differ widely on what are considered by many to be "foundational" issues.

http://adherents.com/

I personally believe that is either what God has allowed (for purposes beyond our comprehension), or it is something which occured simply as a result of human "nature" itself. I really don't know, but "faith" allows me to endure the "differences" I have with others, via "love". If not for that, WHY should anyone who thinks differently NOT be strung up as a HERETIC or INFIDEL (according to my interpretation of "truth")?

If homosexual marriage isn't to be "tolerated", why give an inch on "divorce"? There should be no remarriage, unless we can prove it's biblically "sanctioned". I mean, these ARE the absolutes some would KILL to enforce; history can (and is) repeating itself right before our eyes.

IF every word in the Bible is from "God", then we have all surely misunderstood MUCH. And I think we have. So that is also why I believe that Jesus came to show people THE MOST EXCELLENT WAY.

That "way" is "love" (1Cor13; and other examples given by the Savior).

The world is full of PUSHY and dangerous religion (Middle East, again a perfect example), I sincerely hope that people learn more of what matters period (at the heart level).

Love, is superior to religion/politics/power... because it speaks to the human heart in a way that nothing else is capable of doing. That is exactly why people who know little of "religion" can indeed know and care about the teaching of Jesus Christ.

-Mel-

YES SO IT is as for DIVORCE. I WAS 16 when I got married to a man that soon cheated on me and I CANNOT and would not and should noy=t have to just keep on allowing such as this. SAME AS with a husband or a wife that wouldbe abusive physically and staying in that abusive situation till you end up dead or he or she does because of self defense. SORRY to believe that God or CHRIST WHOM BY THE WAY WAS the WORD MANIFESTED AND IS YET being manifested this day. LIKE IT OR NOT .. BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THE point is a girl or boy of sixteen that ends up getting married should not have to be beaten abused and be deseased by a filandering mate and be expected to just sit and do nothing at all but take it and never have a chance at a better life with another person that would be a good and loving faithful marriage. that is LUDICRIS AND NOT WHAT ANY LOVING FATHER HEAVENLY OR OTHERWISE WOULD WANT FOR THEIR CHILD... truth is EARHLY PARENTS CAN DO EVERYTHING THEY BELIEVE IS THE BEST AND RIGHT THING TO DO AND THEIR CHILD WILL STILL END UP NOT BEING THE PERFECTION AND HAPPY FOREVER AND EVER PERSON ALL EARTHLY PARENTS WANT FOR THEIR CHILD... WE CAN DO OUR BEST AND PRAY AND TEACH WHAT WE KNOW IS THE RIGHT TO TEACH > BUT ALL CHILDREN DISOBEY AND WHEN THEY GET TO BE TEENS THEY QUIT LISTENING AT ALL... AND WHEN THOSE TEENS GET TO BE FOURTY AND HAVE THEIR OWN TEENS AHHHHHH NOW THEY BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND WHAT MOM AND DAD WAS SAYING ??? OH REALLY NO KIDDING????? HOW ABOUT THAT?????? BEEN THERE DONE THAT HONEY... AND IF YOU HAVE NOT WELL PRAISES BE TO GOD.. SORRY I AM beneath you .... and you are really after all better then me I guess. I HAVE TO YIELD TO THE BETTER HUH...

[melikio]

SORRY I AM beneath you .... and you are really after all better then me I guess. I HAVE TO YIELD TO THE BETTER HUH...

We can try to compare "people" all we want, but that's certainly not what I'm talking about (except to show the futility of doing it in the first place).

When I meet a person, I do not assume they are good. I see them as equals, but I KNOW most people come with some kind of baggage, that they have either learned to carry, or are struggling with carrying it.

The best analogy I have, has to do with being offended:

In most cases, people DO NOT "forget" the most terrible wrongs which have been perpetrated against them; they learn to deal with those offenses by way of love and forgiveness. Offenses can be forgotten, but the only person I've ever heard of being able to do that AT WILL, is God Himself. So, by faith a believer in the God of the Bible, knows they can receive such forgiveness, in some way.

For a real human being to forget, is not so absolute or simple; and thus, the "baggage" most of us carry or are sometimes weighted with. One literally has to give of themselves to see forgiveness come to fruition, as they forgive another person (or even God).

This exchange started because you said something to effect that God has never failed you. I didn't disagree with you. I'm merely pointed out that everyone doesn't see God that way (even when they try). They feel or think that God has indeed failed them (at least in some way/s).

So, I can't speak for you or anyone else but myself. I have been disappointed and agry with God in the DEEPEST of ways, from the core of my being. He knows that, and I'm not afraid or ashamed to tell people that. My faith in God has "failed" in major ways, at certain times in my life. This really does happen to people, and it's one of the reasons I eventually disconnected certain aspects of my faith, from my "interpretation" of religion and the Bible.

I'm not even advocating that anyone follow such a path (as I did), I'm merely saying that even "Christians" can go off-road and have a seriously rough ride for various lengths of time, even their whole lives. And we don't ALWAYS understand how LIFE has affected people, so that is why people who take the Bible as some sort of RULE BOOK, and then throw those rules in the faces of other people (especially without compassion or empathy), I see it as being "wrong".

To look at me or talk to me, no one would likely know I almost completely lost my faith in the Bible, Christianity or God Himself. Could have been an atheist, and also could have besome anti-Christian. ALL OF THAT almost happened, because of what I was going through.

And because all of us are HUMAN (including "Christians"), we cannot say what others SHOULD believe...etc. The best we can do with people is to encourage them in loving and practical ways as they go through life. There are surely verses in the Bible which mean something to me, and because of LIFE, there are some things I could never take as literally as some people do. Not that it makes me "right" or "better" than you or anyone else, but that my faith in God, religion or the Bible isn't perfect or absolute. I'm human, and I can't fake being anything other than that; in fact trying that caused me to skate on the edge of being less than fully "sane".

I may not be like you or any other Christian, but I don't see myself as being above or below any other human being.

-Mel-

[melikio]

DIVORCE

Suzanne,

I wasn't judging or condemning anyone concerning "divorce"; merely making a comparison with how people act hypocritically concerning it. And in comparison to homosexuality, divorce is practically "accepted" by Christians (although peole aren't in the practice of openly admitting it).

But the evidence is all around, that people are indeed "preferential" when it comes to sin. I mean, how many people don't actually realize that homosexuality isn't the threat to "families" and "children" that DIVORCE is?

Even so, I'm not advocating that we BAN divorce (via a Constitutional Ammendment, or some other such "law"). Only saying that people often add the weight of other things to their perceptions of sin or even faith. And that is exactly why we all need to show "grace" to other human beings, before we do anything else... the harshness of religion has practically won the day, in this era and many others. I think everything surrounding Jesus was/is SOFTER for a fantastic reason:

People take rules/regulations and become mechanical and unfeeling about them. The "rules" lose their meaning to many, and they are often completely forgotten. I believe that the things "Jesus" emphasized/accomplished (by His life's example), are the things I need to concentrate upon. At least, those are the things in the Bible which still have "meaning" to me as a person.

I can question a lot more from the Bible than I used to, and I don't intend to fake/lie about that. Sometimes I wish I could "believe" more, but I either cannot or will not (it's not always so clear in my heart and mind).

-Mel-

[Suzanne]

SORRY I AM beneath you .... and you are really after all better then me I guess. I HAVE TO YIELD TO THE BETTER HUH...

We can try to compare "people" all we want, but that's certainly not what I'm talking about (except to show the futility of doing it in the first place).

When I meet a person, I do not assume they are good. I see them as equals, but I KNOW most people come with some kind of baggage, that they have either learned to carry, or are struggling with carrying it.

The best analogy I have, has to do with being offended:

In most cases, people DO NOT "forget" the most terrible wrongs which have been perpetrated against them; they learn to deal with those offenses by way of love and forgiveness. Offenses can be forgotten, but the only person I've ever heard of being able to do that AT WILL, is God Himself. So, by faith a believer in the God of the Bible, knows they can receive such forgiveness, in some way.

For a real human being to forget, is not so absolute or simple; and thus, the "baggage" most of us carry or are sometimes weighted with. One literally has to give of themselves to see forgiveness come to fruition, as they forgive another person (or even God).

This exchange started because you said something to effect that God has never failed you. I didn't disagree with you. I'm merely pointed out that everyone doesn't see God that way (even when they try). They feel or think that God has indeed failed them (at least in some way/s).

So, I can't speak for you or anyone else but myself. I have been disappointed and agry with God in the DEEPEST of ways, from the core of my being. He knows that, and I'm not afraid or ashamed to tell people that. My faith in God has "failed" in major ways, at certain times in my life. This really does happen to people, and it's one of the reasons I eventually disconnected certain aspects of my faith, from my "interpretation" of religion and the Bible.

I'm not even advocating that anyone follow such a path (as I did), I'm merely saying that even "Christians" can go off-road and have a seriously rough ride for various lengths of time, even their whole lives. And we don't ALWAYS understand how LIFE has affected people, so that is why people who take the Bible as some sort of RULE BOOK, and then throw those rules in the faces of other people (especially without compassion or empathy), I see it as being "wrong".

To look at me or talk to me, no one would likely know I almost completely lost my faith in the Bible, Christianity or God Himself. Could have been an atheist, and also could have besome anti-Christian. ALL OF THAT almost happened, because of what I was going through.

And because all of us are HUMAN (including "Christians"), we cannot say what others SHOULD believe...etc. The best we can do with people is to encourage them in loving and practical ways as they go through life. There are surely verses in the Bible which mean something to me, and because of LIFE, there are some things I could never take as literally as some people do. Not that it makes me "right" or "better" than you or anyone else, but that my faith in God, religion or the Bible isn't perfect or absolute. I'm human, and I can't fake being anything other than that; in fact trying that caused me to skate on the edge of being less than fully "sane".

I may not be like you or any other Christian, but I don't see myself as being above or below any other human being.

-Mel-

OFFENDED??? WE all GET OFFENDED BY somebody at some time.. and I KNOW I OFFEND OTHERS ALOT.. and ONLY BECAUSE I JUST MOST OFTEN JST TELL IT LIKE IT IS. and people hate being told things just like it is ESPECIALLY when it is about themselves and it is what they do not want to hear . FOR WHATEVER REASON.. I JUST DO NOT LIKE TO BE LIED TO BY ANYONE. and I HATE IT EVEN WORSE when PEOPLE ARE MEAN SPIRITED TOWARD OTHERS because they HAVE NO SENSE ABOUT what they are doing .... THAT does not make me some perfectionist freak of christianity just someone that has been taught better then to treat people like CRAP TO BE HONEST ABOUT IT!!!!!!!

PEOPLE HAVE NO SENSE OF RESPECT FOR PEOPLE LET ALONE RESPECT FOR THEIR LORD !!!!! THAT HAS CREATED US ALL IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!!

I hate when I get all wound up over this STUFF. I HATE argueing and fighting and all the DEBATING AND UNBELIEF and UNRIGHTEOUS NESS THAT WE ALL DO TO EACH OTHER.. all because of STUPIDITY AND NOT KNOWING what GOD HAS ALREADY SAID AND DONE FOR US ALL. IT DRIVES ME UP THE WALL !!!!!! LITERALLY!!!!!!

YOUR WRONG ABOUT ME!!!!!!!!!!!!


YOU WROTE::
"And we don't ALWAYS understand how LIFE has affected people, so that is why people who take the Bible as some sort of RULE BOOK, and then throw those rules in the faces of other people (especially without compassion or empathy), I see it as being "wrong".

I WAS RAISED TO UNDERSTAND THAT NONE ARE ALIKE. and THAT I SHOULD TREAT ALL people with RESPECT!!!!!!!! and EXPECT THE SAME FROM OTHERS> IF THEY ARE GOOD AND GODLY AND RESPECTFUL OF OTHERS THEN OK IF NOT TRY TO HELP THEM BE A BETTER PERSON> and IT USED TO BE YOU COULD HELP others in this . BUT NOT ANY MORE. BECAUSE TO MANY ARE IT is all about """""""ME"""""" and not enough about the other person. NOR MUTUAL RESPECT FOR ANOTHERS FEELINGS and that means not having understanding that WE ALL ARE NOT THE SAME OR in the same PLACE AT the same time. I am NOT STUPID HERE YOU ARE not telling me an darn thing I do not already know about . YOU ARE MAKING ME ANGRY because you think I am just like everybody else you have come ACROSS AS being a """CHRISTIAN"""""

YOU HAVE NO IDEA about MY COMPASSION FOR ANOTHER .. AND ALL BECAUSE I KNOW THEIR HURT and THEIR PAIN >> IF THEY HAD NONE THEY would not treat others so poorly ...

UNDERSTANDING WORKS BOTH WAYS >> and YOU ARE NOT AND HAVE NOT HEARD ANYTHING I HAVE SAID in here.. all you see is CAPS<<<<<< AND MUCH WORDS BUT YOU ARE NOT HEARING what is being actually said .. either that or you think I am stupid here .. and you really have no wisdom about the word of GOD at all . AND THAT I CAN believe .. WE ALL ARE NOT EQUAL IN OUR HEARTS THOUGH . that is apparent.. REFERRING TO THE EYE TO EYE.. TROUBLE WITH MOST USE THEIR EYES BUT DO NOT USE THEIR VISION TO SEE DEEP ENOUGH.. INTO THE HEART OF A PERSON. NO JUST LOOK AT WHAT they can see .. CANNOT believe what is within the pages of a book without seeing what is written between the COVERING BACK and FRONT.. SAME with a person LOOKING ON THE OUTSIDE without LOOKING DEEPER INTO THE INNER is missing alot. NO VISION and NO WAY TO SEE PAST the outer . covering of a person... LOOK OUT FOR SWEET INSINCERE WORDS OF LOVE..

I CAN LOVE MY ENEMIES PRAY FOR THEM AND FORGIVE THEM BUT AN ENEMY THAT IS NOT willing TO FORGIVE OR ACCEPT FORGIVENESS is not HAVING ANY WISDOM OF GOD NO FEAR OF GOD AND NO UNDERSTANDING OF WHO THEY ARE TO BEGIN WITH. because hatred EATS UP A PERSON ON THE INSIDE and they are BITTER ANGRY LONELY PEOPLE. and HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO TREAT ANYONE well and with RESPECT.

what I have found is that anyone that comes claiming to be a CHRISTIAN BELIEVER IN CHRIST JESUS then RED FLAGS GO UP LIKE STOP BE CAREFUL OF THIS PERSON . what the heck do they fear us for. BECAUSE THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND ANYTHING ABOUT CHRIST JESUS GOD OR TRUTH OF WHO WE ALL ARE IN HIM THRU HIM ABD BY HIM> ALL BECAUSE THEY ARE FULFILLMENTS OF THE PROPHECY THEY HAVE EARS TO HEAR BUT DO NOT HEAR.

BEEN EVIDENT TO THAT TRUTH ALL MY LIFE!!!!!!!!!! and even more so in here worse then ever.


YOU WROTE::
""I have been disappointed and agry with God in the DEEPEST of ways, from the core of my being. He knows that, and I'm not afraid or ashamed to tell people that. My faith in God has "failed" in major ways, at certain times in my life. This really does happen to people, """


WE all have our bad down times .. BUT WE ALL HAVE FAITH IN SOMETHING. MINE HAS ALWAYS BEEN IN GOD ALMIGHTY CREATOR GOD JEHOVAH GOD ABBA FATHER GOD.. AND I AM NOT ASHAMED OF HIM OR HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN CHRIST JESUS .. and THE CROSS AND GOSPEL THAT IS WRITTEN OF ABOUT AND IS.

YOU say you are not ashamed THAT people know THAT YOU HAVE been angry with GOD!!!! well WHY BE ANGRY WITH GOD when it is YOUR CHOICES THAT GIVES YOU the AGONY AND PAIN YOU GO THRU JUST because of the CHOICES YOU HAVE MADE IN LIFE>>>?????????????

WE ALL BEEN THERE done that I have BUT I NEVER BLAMED MY GOD for it.

BECAUSE I ALREADY KNOW THAT to do wrong stuff you are bound to SUFFER FOR IT ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. WHY WOULD I BLAME GOD FOR MY WRONG CHOICES> ??????????

I HAVE ALWAYS believed and still do that all THINGS HAPPEN FOR A REASON. and it is HIS REASON and HIS PURPOSES FOR ME AS A PERSON.

WHY????? BECAUSE GOD IS GOD and HE IS MY AND YOURS AND THE CREATOR GOD OF US ALL AND ALL THAT HAS EVER BEEN OR IS OR EVER WILL BE!!!!!!!

YOU do not have to believe this JUST because I say so. BUT THE WORD speaks for HIMSELF IN HIS BOOK > NOBODY READS IT >>>>>>>>>>>

I CANNOT even GET MY OWN KYDS TO READ THE WORD HE HAS SAID and done for them also.. BUT HEY THEIR TIME WILL COME ALSO. FOR IT DOES come to us all better sooner then later that is for certain.

I HAVE A GRANDSON Jesse that has heard the word . and I have a son that knows the word. AND IS ON HIS WAY..

What's in a name?????


MY GREAT GRANDFATHER was named MOSES.. THAT IS TRUE.. MY DAD'S NAME was HEAVERIN REMOVE THE "R" AND "I" YOU GET HEAVEN...
MY mothers name was Marie. (Maria female Hebrew bitter Mary, Marya, Mariah, Marie,) Susan (female Hebrew lily Susannah, Susanne, Susanna, Susi, Suse, Suisan, (((Suzanne,))))
Jesse male Hebrew wealthy

Moses (male Hebrew, Egyptian, Greek saved; child; taken from water Mose, Moe, Mosya, Moey, Moss, Moshe, Moishe, Mosheh, Moyes, Moyse)


I put all that name stuff in just because Of CURIOSITY.. and because I KNEW MY GREAT GRANDPA'S NAME was MOSES. MOSES wrote the first Five books of Scripture. I just kijnda believe that is a really neat thing for my heritage. to have THIS NAME IN MY LINAGE.

If you would like to check on some of your family names. here is the url. God Bless.

http://baby-names.adoption.com/

[melikio]

YOU say you are not ashamed THAT people know THAT YOU HAVE been angry with GOD!!!! well WHY BE ANGRY WITH GOD when it is YOUR CHOICES THAT GIVES YOU the AGONY AND PAIN YOU GO THRU JUST because of the CHOICES YOU HAVE MADE IN LIFE>>>?????????????

You know what? You make me angry too! This is exactly why I can only stand so much of this kind of conversation. You literally have proven to me, that you DO NOT KNOW what you are talking about; yet you go on, as if you KNOW me. It is beyond annoying, indeed. The ONLY clues you have about what I've struggled with, and the alleged "choices" I've made, are mainly assumption on your part. DID YOU NOTICE HOW I DID NOT USE YOUR DIVORCE AGAINST YOU? WHY DO YOU JUDGE ME? And why do yo have to PUSH so much of YOUR faith upon me?

I'm telling you here: That you are an example of why I cannot TRUST many Christians or expect compassion from them when I really need it.

Gosh, I was STUPID for going on with you here.

It's like you didn't understand one little bit of what I said earlier. So, why bother? (I have to ask myself.) Perhaps I shouldn't have tried to explain anything at all. Arrghh!

You are like so many of the others, who think the way they see the world and "God", is the way everyone else should see them.

I am so sick of that kind of attitude. WHY CAN'T GOD BE QUESTIONED?

YOU ASK, WHY BE ANGRY WITH GOD? Then you proceed to tell me that ALL the trouble, struggles and pain in my life come as a result of MY choices. THAT IS GENERIC BS, Suzanne. (At least to me, it is.)

What you just said is so offensive, not because you said it like it was/is, but because you assume what YOU CANNOT POSSIBLY KNOW. What if I blamed YOU for all the pain and struggle in your own life? Or is that your way of rationalizing the things that go wrong in your own life?

You know what?!! NEVER MIND!! Honestly, this is where so many Christians just leave me COLD. I really can't take that high/mighty attitude ALL of the time.

So, if I follow YOUR LOGIC... every person I see in a wheelchair, has a mental problem, suffering from a disease, going through a divorce...whatever the difficult or painful problem may be...

...then I should just tell them that all their pain, comes from their own choices. And even though you DO NOT see it that way yourself, that is what you've just said to me in what's quoted above.

So now, I'm reminded just WHY, I really shouldn't talk to a Christian like YOU about this stuff. It's useless, it's cold not worth the effort.

You just pissed me off. I don't hate you, but I want you to know that something is WRONG AS HELL about what you said. And yeah, I think in THIS CASE, I should have just stopped responding to you about 3 posts ago.

I DON'T NEED THIS PERIOD. Sorry to react this way, but I think you've put into a nutshell, why there is so much enmity between those who struggle or hurt, and those who believe they've reached the mountaintop (or some station above others).

And no, this isn't just about me, it's about ALL the people who have struggled and suffered UNDER religion as I have. This is where I get to tell it as I see it (just as you say you do). I don't intend to offend, just be a bit more bold about what I think is true.

I really wish I could help you understand what I'm saying here, but some things are simply God's providence alone. May God's will be done (one way, the other, or in ways we can't imagine). (Sigh.)

By the way, I know my anger accomplishes little to nothing really. Even so, I'm hoping that you and anyone else might understand PEOPLE better than they do (despite personal religious views and biblical interpretations).

Take care,

-Mel-

[Suzanne]

YOU say you are not ashamed THAT people know THAT YOU HAVE been angry with GOD!!!! well WHY BE ANGRY WITH GOD when it is YOUR CHOICES THAT GIVES YOU the AGONY AND PAIN YOU GO THRU JUST because of the CHOICES YOU HAVE MADE IN LIFE>>>?????????????

[quoteYou know what? You make me angry too! This is exactly why I can only stand so much of this kind of conversation. You literally have proven to me, that you DO NOT KNOW what you are talking about; yet you go on, as if you KNOW me. It is beyond annoying, indeed. The ONLY clues you have about what I've struggled with, and the alleged "choices" I've made, are mainly assumption on your part. DID YOU NOTICE HOW I DID NOT USE YOUR DIVORCE AGAINST YOU? WHY DO YOU JUDGE ME? And why do yo have to PUSH so much of YOUR faith upon me?

I am truly sorry to have upset you mel... I do not intend to upset anyone. or get into any arguements with anyone . THE real problem is that just that. we do not agree on GOD, JESUS CHRIST, and who and what and who He is and who WE ARE AS TWO INDIVIDUALS ARE in HIM...

THIS IS the whole PROBLEM... IT is the reason for all the ARGUMENTS ABOUT RELIGION AND RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. I remember eople always saying to my mother do not discuss POLITICS OR RELIGION... well tell ya what mel.. WE BETTER BE ABLE TO DISCUSS BOTH .. and be able to do it calmly and with insight compassion and yes LOVE and understanding of each other . WHY??? BECAUSE ONE IS TO LIVE BY. and the other is TO LIVE WITH.. YOU CANNOT LIVE AT ALL without LIFE HAVING BEEN GIVEN TO MANKIND IN THE FIRST PLACE BY A GOD THAT is BIGGER AND MIGHTIER THEN ANY OF US. and we cannot have A GOOD LIFE IF WE DO NOT HAVE ANY UNDERSTANDING OF THIS LIFE WE ARE LIVING AT ALL. and how it all is supposed to work for the GOOD OF US ALL .. TRUTH IS WE Have not done such a good bang up job of doing either well because WE ARE not willing to LEARN and UNDERSTAND EITHER GOD US OR OUR POLICTICAL AGENDAS AND how and why OUR GOVERNMENT IS BETTER BY A LONG SHOT THEN OTHERS.

I'm telling you here: That you are an example of why I cannot TRUST many Christians or expect compassion from them when I really need it.

Gosh, I was STUPID for going on with you here.

sure I am an example . because I am a CHRISTIAN.. because I DO CLAIM THAT GOD IS GOD. THAT I AM CREATED AND NOT JUST EVOLVED FROM SOME WHAT A GERM A MICROBE A WHATEVER??? NO MY DEAR I AM better then just some NOTHING THAT CRAWLED OUT OF THE GROUND AND WAS MADE BY NOTHING.. NO I WAS FORMED AND MADE AND MOLDED AND FASHIONED BY THE HAND OF THE LORD THY GOD ALMIGHTY.. I AM WONDERFULLY AND MARVOULOUSLY MADE . BEING NIT TOGETHER IN MY MOTHER WOMB.. right in that place that GOD SAID I SHULD BE TO MATURE AND GROW AND BECOME MTURE ENOUGH TO BE BORN INTO THIS WORLD HE HAS CREATED FOR YOU AD ME AND ALL MANKIND TO LIVE IN AND ON THE PLANET ... NO I AM A WOMAN MEL!!!!!!! and gues what WE AS WOMAN WOULD NOT HAVE LIFE IF GOD HAD NOT HAVE FIRST MADE THE MAN!!!!!! OK????? so GET THE HELL OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE and LISTEN UP.. IF GOD IS NOT AND HE DID NOT CREATE YOU AND MAN THEN WHERE IN THE HELL DID YOU GET YOUR LIFE FROM IF NOT FROM SOMETHING BIGGER THEN YOU SMARTER AND WISER THEN YOU AND SURE AS HELL HAVING A PLAN FOR YOUR LIFE BETTER THEN EITHER YOU OR I COULD HAVE MADE UP FOR EITHER OF US????????

DON'T TAKE MY WORD FOR IT hell I KNOW NOTHING RIGHT AFTER ALL I AM JUST A WOMAN!!!! hey DUMBO!!!!! ARE YOU AN ELEPHANT. FORGETFUL AND SO BIG THAT YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND ANYTHING AT ALL ??? HEAD IN THE CLOUDS?????? WELL come down long enough to hear something about the MAN THAT CREATED THE MAN SO I THE WOMAN COULD HAVE THIS LIFE TO BE A WIFE TO A MAN AND BEAR MORE CHILDREN AND N MORE MANKIND FOR THIS EARTH AND THE LORD GOD THAT HAS CREATED BOTH MAN AND THE WOMAN.. GEESH HOW SIMPLE IS THIS ANYWAY!!!!!! GOD IS GOD AND WITHOUT GOD NEITHER OF US WOULD BE HERE ??????? GOSH HOW DOES YOUR WIFE GET ALONG WITH YOU .. I HOPE SHE HAS PATIENCE ... IF SHE is a GOOD WIFE SHE DOES.. :):):):) takes patience for us woman to put up with you husbands after all we have to run DEFENSE WITH THE KYDS for angry people like you all the damn time.YOU GUYS HAVE TO MUCH PRESSURE.. NO WONDER IF YOU HAD NOT HAVE N MESSED UP IN THE FIRST PLACE . everything would have been just fine..

DO NOT FORGET GOD CREATED MAN FIRST!!!!!!!!!!! NOT THE BEAST OF THE FIELD and NOT THE WOMAN> YOU WERE CREATED FIRST!!!!!!!!!!! THEN CAME THE BEAST> THEN CAME THE WOMAN >>>>> BEING MADE FROM THE RIB>>>> all BECAUSE GOD KNEW THE MAN BETTER THEN YOU GUYS KNOW YOURSELF. and also KNOWS US BETTER TOO.... HE GAVE US LIFE.... WHAT GOD DID was GIVE THE MAN A CHOICE TO DO AS HE SAID OR DIE????????? I GUESS ADAM DID NOT BELIEVE HIM HUH????

WELL GOD MEANT JUST WHAT HE SAID.. DO NOT EAT THAT FRUIT OF THAT TREE OF KNOWLEDGE.. of GOOD and EVIL...JUST LIVE and FOLLOW HIS RULE.. THE FATHER THAT HAD CREATED AND MADE BOTH.. MALE AND FEMALE...

HE NEVER TOLD THE WOMAN ANYTHING... HE TOLD THE MAN!!!

It's like you didn't understand one little bit of what I said earlier. So, why bother? (I have to ask myself.) Perhaps I shouldn't have tried to explain anything at all. Arrghh!

You are like so many of the others, who think the way they see the world and "God", is the way everyone else should see them.

WELL EVERY ONE SHOULD BUT WE DO NOT!!!! OK??? and that is NOT ANYONES FAULT BUT ALL OF OUR FAULTS.. and we all HAVE OUR CROSS TO BARE FOR THAT LITTLE BIT OF PROBLEM WE HAVE MADE FOR US ALL....

THE BEAST,THE MAN, AND THE WOMAN. GEESH IT IS LIKE I HAVE BEEN HERE SAID AND DONE THIS BEFORE.....GET OVER IT!!!!!! NONE will ever agree on GOD JESUS CHRIST THE HOLY SPIRIT OR POLITICAL ISSUES.. YET BECAUSE WE DON"T WE AS A PEOPLE ARE DESTINED TO FIGHT AND WAR UNTIL HELL FREEZES OVER.. and HELL WILL NEVER FREEZE OVER because IT IS TO DAMNED HOT IN THE FIRST PLACE NO ICE COULD FORM with all that FIRE and BRIMSTONE OK?????????

I am so sick of that kind of attitude. WHY CAN'T GOD BE QUESTIONED?

WHY would you want to question GOD ??? What do ya want to ask HIM "Why did you GIVE ME A DEATH SENTANCE???? "READ HIS BOOK and IT is RIGHT THERE.. " ALL BECAUSE OF that BEAST.. WELL HE GOT HIS TOO.. AND NOW JUST THINK ABOUT THIS .. HE NEVER GOT ANY LEGS TO STAND ON.. AND WE HAVE LEGS AT LEAST.. NOT ONLY THAT WE WALK AND TALK AND CAN JUST TELL THAT SNAKE HE HAS NO POWER AT ALL . OF COURSE that does not GIVE US A FREEDOM TO GET away from our PUNISHMENT NOW does it?? LIKE IT OR NOT we all are gonna die someday.. BUT HEY IF YOU HAVE ANY KYDS. all is not lost... AND EVEN IF YOU DO NOT.. YOU have know people somewhere.. that apparently appreciated you for something .. EVEN IF IT WAS just for your being you huh?? AFTER ALL WE ALL CANNOT BE PERFECT CAN WE . of COURSE IF GOD DID NOT THINK YOU NEEDED US WOMAN I GUESS HE would have not wasted HIS time ... SO THAT tells me we must have been IMPORTANT.. BUT GEE then I have to REMEMBER HE MADE YOU FIRST> AND IN HIS AND HIS SONS IMAGE.. wich still makes you first.. OH WELL WHO CARES. I DON'T. SO WE BOTH HAVE A LIFE to live and we both will die equal in that huh??? NOW I as a woman could hate you for that bit of NOT BELIEVING what GOD had said in the first place. and cause the death of us all.. BUT HEY LET'S JUST forget that ok??? AFTER all in the end all turns out ok anyway..

YOU ASK, WHY BE ANGRY WITH GOD? Then you proceed to tell me that ALL the trouble, struggles and pain in my life come as a result of MY choices. THAT IS GENERIC BS, Suzanne. (At least to me, it is.)

What you just said is so offensive, not because you said it like it was/is, but because you assume what YOU CANNOT POSSIBLY KNOW. What if I blamed YOU for all the pain and struggle in your own life? Or is that your way of rationalizing the things that go wrong in your own life?

GO ahead tell me that MY CHOICES HAVE CAUSED MY PAIN AND SUFFERING ??? I don't care I already know this.. THAT WE ALL HAVE A CHOICE NOW!!!!!!!! and we have had ever since THE FIRST DEATH and SUFFERING and THE FIRST RESURRECTION...... THE SUFFERING AND DEATH OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD . IS THE ONLY REASON we can CHOOSE NOW TO LIVE OR JUST GIVE UP AND DIE???? ME I AM NOT GOING TO JUST LAY DOWN AND GIVE UP AND DIE!!!! NO MATTER WHAT OTHERS WOULD LIKE ME TO DO. which is just GO away and be QUIET and shut up...


AS for THE PAIN and SUFFERING YOU may have .. depends on what you are talking about.. I THINK YOU HAVE A LOT OF INNER SUFFERING AND PAIN.. IN REALITY most of us do, even me hahah but hey I get over my anger fast.. I just explode and then ok let's move on here .. WHAT DO YOU DO aboyut your anger Mel????? just keep it all tied up and not let any of it out unless you are really pushed into it?? WELL IT IS ONE THING TO control anger but it is another thing to never get angry .. NOT GOOD. FOR ALL have to let off steam when and if you are going to live here any length of time.. STRESS IS BAD for us all man or woman. that is why I have as little as possible. SHOOT I don't even like execise. hahaha CALL me Iazy don't cae. at least I am yet alive.. BUT THERE YA GO AGAIN.. I have someone to thank for that also GOD>> and a HUSBAND THAT just REFUSED TO NOT do what HE was told to do. and he ended up dead before me.. again just not wanting to do what was said to do. oh well I been there and done that too. but not often. Just when i get stupid and do crazy things ..

You know what?!! NEVER MIND!! Honestly, this is where so many Christians just leave me COLD. I really can't take that high/mighty attitude ALL of the time.

LEAVE YOU COLD??? ya right.. high and mighty attitude.. LIKE KNOWING what the heck I am talking about. is being high and mighty and having an attitude. well we all have attitudes. of one kind or another right?? yours is, I do not agree with your ideas in the first place they are not my ideas they came from GOD and what He has already said and done. so take it up with HIM !!!!!!! OK??????? now if you want to discuss why I believe in God then I can tell you why. YET you cannot even claim to know God let along tell me why you believe the way you do about a GOD YOU FEEL You have to question his ways ... and why you are alive in the first place living here and having all this crap you apparently are dealling with. we all have crap to deal with and that comes right back to why we do doesn't it adam being disobedient to the CREATOR OF US BOTH MAN AND woman .

So, if I follow YOUR LOGIC... every person I see in a wheelchair, has a mental problem, suffering from a disease, going through a divorce...whatever the difficult or painful problem may be...

...then I should just tell them that all their pain, comes from their own choices. And even though you DO NOT see it that way yourself, that is what you've just said to me in what's quoted above.

people in wheelchairs, mental illness, and other illnesses and other problems of the physical?? BEING our faults??? not exactly.. it is just the way things are. because of Adam the FIRST MAN not following the rule . remember the fruit of knowledge??? knowledge of what??? good and evil.. now who besides GOD knew what the knowledge of good and evil was? IF GOD WAS the one that made the tree of life and the tree of knowledge.. HE GOD also gave the order to follow the rule the law of the land he had placed this Adam and woman and beast in.. along with the warning and the penalty for breaking the rule.. HAS NOT HE been faithful in this word . EAT and you shall die?? DID THAT MAN ADAM EAT OF THE FRUIT OF THAT TREE OF KNOWLEDGE??????? oh ya .. HE DID . NOW DOES MAN DIE?? DID ADAM DIE?? DOES A WOMAN DIE??? DO ALL FLESH AND BLOOD PHYSICAL MANKIND DIE BEAST AND MANKIND ALIKE ALL LIVING THINGS DIE??? YES!!!!!!!!!!!!! SO DOES GOD AND DID GOD AND DOES THAT WORD HE SPOKE AND HAS HAD WRITTEN IS IT A LIE??????? NO HE did not lie . WE ALL DIE!! A PHYSICAL DEATH .. oh but wait a minute. what about that life forever thing . huh??? DO I REALLY HAVE TO take you through all this ?????????? SO no all our physical problems we have in some way or another are to blame for them just by the truth that MAN DISOBEYED andDID NOT BELEVE whatthe FATHER GOD had told HIM RIGHT FROM THE START.. but ge uess what this ADAM did. three guesses and the first two do not count.. OK I will tell ya in case you forgot.. when the father came and asked ADAM "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?? " what did he say;; "THE WOMAN YOU GAVE ME GAVE THE FRUIT FOR ME TO EAT."

WELL DA!!!!!!!!!! SURE AS IF I WAS TO BLAME because OF BEING DUMB AND ABLE To BE DECIEVED. afterall the woman HAD NOT SAID anything at all until she was decieved with the words of the BEAST in the field. YET TO BLAME HER FOR HIS GOING AGAINST WHAT HE WAS told NOT TO DO????? BY GOD and then IN a ROUND ABOUT WAY . GEE GOD YOU GAVE ME THIS WOMAN AND NOW see what she did.. ya RIGHT????? NOTHING LIKE the one that is supposed to know what is to be done and then not doing it and then blame the one that was just supposed to be a helper and a mate for the man the least he could do is NOT DISOBEY THE RULE the FATHER HAD GIVEN HIM TO FOLLOW AND NOT DO!!! .. NO DO IT AND THEN COMOUND IT BY GIVING THE WOMAN THE BLAME.. because she wa dumb and ignorant to fall for the deception.. and seems like we have n been punished justly for that also .. we suffer pain giving birth and we still get decieved BUT LOOKS and FEELINGS.. now how faithful and just is GOD IN HIS RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT HUH????????

So now, I'm reminded just WHY, I really shouldn't talk to a Christian like YOU about this stuff. It's useless, it's cold not worth the effort.

You just pissed me off. I don't hate you, but I want you to know that something is WRONG AS HELL about what you said. And yeah, I think in THIS CASE, I should have just stopped responding to you about 3 posts ago.

I DON'T NEED THIS PERIOD. Sorry to react this way, but I think you've put into a nutshell, why there is so much enmity between those who struggle or hurt, and those who believe they've reached the mountaintop (or some station above others). [/quote]

WELL I am really glad you do not hate me .. so if you do not hate me you can like me at least if not love me huh?? and i love you anyway.. why?? BECAUSE YOU ARE just another person on this earth struggling to understand life and why ife has dealt you a bad hand as you see it. MAYBE????????? well when i start talking about why and the wherefores of all the pain and suffering people go through I tear up cry and just get to emotional . so I better just not get started on that ok..

YOU have mentioned no compassion . You have no idea the compassion i have and trouble i hav with dealing with the pain of another. especially if i reall love that person. BEEN THERE DONE THAT and it is a good thing i am the bold strong headed bull headed person i am . or i could not have dealt with the suffering that my husband went through. before he died and been as strong as I was through it all including his bad attitude and temper all the time about almost everything.. IT IS NOT EASY living with someone that is unhappy with themselves. and is angry at everybody and life .. all because of what life has dealt them..

IT TAKES GUTS TO LIVE THIS LIFE> IT TAKES much more then I could ever withstand just of myself . wake up IF YOU DO NOT ALREADY UNDERSTAND THAT WITHOUT GOD WE COULD NEVER WITHSTAND THE PRESSURES OF THIS LIFE ..
I THANK GOD EVERY DAY that had the Mother and Dad that I did have . and there is alot i could tell about that . but I won't . it is enough to know that I was raised well .. even if i was spoiled rotten . I was raised to know what was and is important in life. and that is THAT TO be honest and just be who you are is the only way to be because in the end we all die a physical death and there is no other way oput of this life. for any of us. and it is by the grace of GOD ANY OF US MAKE IT to the end GOD HAS ALREADY PLANNED FOR US. FOR without my faith in HIM I PROBABLY would have never been here today to be talking to you. IN TRUTH I KNOW I WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN

And no, this isn't just about me, it's about ALL the people who have struggled and suffered UNDER religion as I have. This is where I get to tell it as I see it (just as you say you do). I don't intend to offend, just be a bit more bold about what I think is true.

JUST YOU SAYING what you THINK IS TRUTH. tells me you do not know what the truth is... what truth are you seeking Mel???
I know why I am in this forum .. I know why I am on this computer . I know why I am who I am.. I AM WHO I AM BECAUSE GOD HAS MADE ME WHO I AM.. YES I WAS born through a womans womb just as you also. and all mankind that came before any of us. were here.. FOR THERE IS more to US and life and all that is that is beyound us beyound our comprehension.. BUT DOWN DEEP INSIDE OF US there is this that tells us we are not just NOTHING BUT DIRT!!!!! WE ARE MORE THEN DUST. MORE THEN DIRT, THERE IS something within us each and every one . that gives us our essence our being our abilitiy to walk and talk and be more then any other living thngs on this planet earth.. WE rise far above all other things .. because of our minds and ou hearts and our love for this GOD WE COME TO KNOW is real and present within the deepest part of our heart. there are those that die never ever having the knowledge the expierence the wisdom of knowing the feeling of this love that only god can give to any of us.. it is a love that is deep and lasting and one that brings us pain yet joy suffering yet happiness but it is a love that few ever have in this life.. I have been blessed with a husbadn that loved me and yes i also loved him . but neither of us could live with utthe pains hurts and sorrows that come with having a loving relationship that you either care enough or you leave and get out.. I CARED ENOUGH TO STAY . HE was always the one that was talking divorce and sorry this and sorry that.. BUT YET HE NEVER LEFT.. why because he did love me and the kyds.. I could have left i could have left I could have went someplace else.. BUT I DID NOT WANT TO GO AND be anyplace else... HOME IS where the heart is.. and if love is there then it is home no matter where it is.. I have a place now where I am alone but have my kyds.. BUT the love and companionship of a husband I miss .

WE all have hurts in this life MEL.. all of us have our inner feelings and hurts to deal with and get through the pains.. IF we have people that care enough t be there that is good . I have my kyds.. BUT THE PROBLEM WITH KYDS IS . they grow up and have kyds of their own and have their lifeto live also with all their own trials and tribulations to deal with. AND I AM NOT ONE TO MEDDLE.. OR BE A HEY DO THIS AND DO THAT . any more then I need and have to. I DO NOT like depending on them but I do . because they are my kyds . BUT I neither like being alone by myself either. BUT HEY I have dealt with pains and hurts before and I have always come through it all I can and will get past all this also AND YOU KNOW WHAT SO WILL YOU!!!!!!!! IF I CAN YOU CAN.. EVEN IF YOU ARE JUST A MAN!!!!!!!! YOU CULD LEARN ALOT FROM US WOMAN. LISTEN TO YOUR WIFE I would be willing to bet she has alot of wisdom ........

I really wish I could help you understand what I'm saying here, but some things are simply God's providence alone. May God's will be done (one way, the other, or in ways we can't imagine). (Sigh.)

By the way, I know my anger accomplishes little to nothing really. Even so, I'm hoping that you and anyone else might understand PEOPLE better than they do (despite personal religious views and biblical interpretations).

WHO THEY UNDERSTAND.. I understand people very well IT IS WHY THEY do what they do I do not understand at times . but then I also know why most do what they do it is because of their inner turmoil within themselves BEEN THERE DONE THAT TOO and still do.. that seems to never end.. I KNOW WHY I AM IN TURMOIL and because I know I am and can cope with it in my own way.. I CRY ALOT.. IT IS SAID TEARS CLEANSE the soul,, THEY ALSO RELIEVE ANGER STRESS AND CLEAN THE EYES OUT AND GIVE MOISTURE TO DRY EYES.. THERE ARE HAPPY TEARS SAD TEARS and JUST PLAIN DO NOT MUCH TEARS. BUT TEARS ARE GOOD .. I NEVER USED TO CRY now it seems all I have to do is THINK AND I CRY.. NOT MEDITATING ON THE RIGHT THING ME THINKS.. HERE I go again yattah yattah

YOU may be surprised how letting your anger out a bit can help matters. YOU DON"T HAVE TO BEAT ON DOORS AND PUT HOLES IN WALLS OR HIT ANOTHER YA KNOW.. WORDS CAN BE GOOD TO LET OFF STEAM CUSSING IS NOT GOOD BUT HEY I AM NOT BEYOND THAT IF I GET MAD ENOUGH.
I THINK IT IS ONLY CATHOLICS THAT ATTAIN SAINTHOOD AND THEN THAT ONLY AFTER THEY ARE DEAD AND CANNOT ENJOY THE TITLE.. BUT HET I WOULD RATHER be CALLED A SAINT OF THE LORD while here and now then wait untill I am dead and gone and then everybody go around talking about what a saint I WAS> geesh!!!!!! no benefit in that ..

I DO not want to be a saint anyway I am satisfied to be just a CHILD OF THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY . MY SON CALLS HIS WIFE HIS QUEEN now that I could handle ok too .. BUT THAT is another story that I really do not want to even get into or discuss.. ..

you too
Take care,

-Mel-[/quote]