Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

[Eloi]

Oddly enough, this is the belief of all of Christendom.

However, Jesus said just the opposite:

Rev. 1:17 When I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet.
And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave.
... 2:8 “And to the angel of the congregation in Smyrʹna write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life again ..."

If Jesus says that he "became dead" and "came to life again", why do theologians and religious leaders of Christendom say that he never died, and they say even that he "resurrected himself"? Isn't that a clear denial of Jesus' statements in this regard?

[onewithhim]

Neither Paul nor Jesus indicated that a person is present after death. When Paul said, "absent from the body is present with the Lord," he didn't say how long an interval there would be between death and presence with the Lord, and there was one---a long one.

The interval between death and presence with the Lord is meaningless if you have a group of people (Jehovah's Witnesses) stating that there is no such Biblical concept of being absent from the body.

Where does any JW say that there is no concept of being absent from the body? We've been saying that Jesus became absent from his physical body when he was resurrected after three days. We have said that all of his associate rulers will rise to heaven in spirit bodies.

You have the theology of our organization wrong. Do more research on our website if you really want to know our position. We have explained many times what our position is on spirit bodies, physical bodies, and the holy spirit that causes someone to be alive, yet you have missed all that. We have had the pleasure of posting on many threads what we believe about that, with scriptural back-up.

The Rich Man and Lazarus is a metaphorical story, not to be taken literally, as you would agree if you concede that one drop of water on someone's tongue cannot actually quench someone's agony in a fire. Every person and situation in that story stands for something else, such as the "rich man" being allegorical for the Pharisees who were not doing their job of spiritually feeding "Lazarus," or, the common people. One cannot use that story to prove anything about hell-fire or the amount of time between a person's death and their resurrection.

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[We_Are_VENOM]

Let's see if that claim adds up:

Spirit - noun
1. the nonphysical part of a person which is the seat of emotions and character; the soul.

It adds up.

Keyword: Character

Incorrect. The Keyword is "Spirit". The nonphysical aspect of a person [remember your argument 'made in gods image and how god is not physical'] - the place where the personality [emotions/character] is situated, is the soul [seat] - which is an aspect of spirit, serving to store the information of the individual personality which forms through the process.

And what is a character?

An actor in a storyline.

Do you know a synonym for character?

PERSONALITY

Exactly. There is no personality of note in a human new-born. But there is Spirit. The character forms as the personality develops.

So we can see that the character aligns with the personality.

And if a character has a righteous personality , the Spirit can be said to have achieved a good thing, and the soul of that good thing [stored information of the individual personality] will be saved.

I disagree. If a person is said to have an evil spirit, this is synonymous with having an evil character AND evil mind.

We may have to agree to disagree, although you make a valid point with the newborn baby example.

But my point still remains, that mankind was graced to be made in the image of God by having an immaterial self, just as God has and is.

[onewithhim]

Let's see if that claim adds up:

Spirit - noun
1. the nonphysical part of a person which is the seat of emotions and character; the soul.

It adds up.

Keyword: Character

Incorrect. The Keyword is "Spirit". The nonphysical aspect of a person [remember your argument 'made in gods image and how god is not physical'] - the place where the personality [emotions/character] is situated, is the soul [seat] - which is an aspect of spirit, serving to store the information of the individual personality which forms through the process.

And what is a character?

An actor in a storyline.

Do you know a synonym for character?

PERSONALITY

Exactly. There is no personality of note in a human new-born. But there is Spirit. The character forms as the personality develops.

So we can see that the character aligns with the personality.

And if a character has a righteous personality , the Spirit can be said to have achieved a good thing, and the soul of that good thing [stored information of the individual personality] will be saved.

I disagree. If a person is said to have an evil spirit, this is synonymous with having an evil character AND evil mind.

We may have to agree to disagree, although you make a valid point with the newborn baby example.

But my point still remains, that mankind was graced to be made in the image of God by having an immaterial self, just as God has and is.

There is nothing in the scriptures to support your idea. It has been explained that there is no immaterial spirit self inside a person, but just the breath of life from God, and our own mental inclination. The Bible says that the dead know nothing (Eccles.9:5) and Jesus made the point that a dead person is as if in a deep sleep. He doesn't go anywhere after death. That is a pagan belief---that our spirit self goes on after death. (John 11:11) The dead simply wait for the Resurrection "in the last day." (John 6:40,44)

We are made in God's image by having his attributes of wisdom, power, love, and justice, not the bodily make-up. We aren't spirits with physical bodies, we are physical people with God's Spirit keeping us alive. (That is the spirit we have within us---God's Spirit, to keep us breathing and give us life. "Man became a living soul," he wasn't given a soul, after he received the breath of life from God.)

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[William]

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #72]

If a person is said to have an evil spirit, this is synonymous with having an evil character AND evil mind.

In more general terms, a person said to be evil is not said to be connected with the Mind Behind Creation in any meaningful way - in that - the mind remains individuate and not connected with other minds which become collective.

An evil character can thus influence individuate minds, but the source of the influence is not coming from the Collective Mind Behind Creation.
Rather it is a minor off-shoot of the MBC which is investigating that branch of reality.

We may have to agree to disagree, although you make a valid point with the newborn baby example.

Well perhaps don't take that point off the table, we may yet find a place of agreement.

But my point still remains, that mankind was graced to be made in the image of God by having an immaterial self, just as God has and is.

I see it like this;

"God" = The Mind Behind Creation. [MBC]

As such, we in human form, cannot experience the image that presents, because it is literally the conglomeration of everything to do with "The Mind" so individuate minds are not 'The Source Mind" but are Particle Minds connected to the MBC in that way.

We experience life as individual minds, not as minds consciously connected to the Collective MBC.

The option is available to the individual to allow the minds to merge - that is to say, the individual can open up to the awareness that they are connected to the MBC and that awareness will slowly and surely develop into greater understanding and participation.

The immaterial "Self" that "God" is, is the combined minds of those open to the connection, if indeed one is arguing that the Self = Personality/Character.

That "self" transfers as a pattern into the individuate minds character and personality, essential making the individuate mind a product of many minds all working together as the one mind.

"Good" [aka "God"] and evil [aka "devil"] are the result of the individuate human perceptions which are cut off from the greater knowledge of the Immaterial Background Reality, and it is they themselves who create 'realities' which can be experienced as 'real' but are not necessarily real in terms of the MBCs actual dominant reality. They are little plays being carried out in the shadows, not the main event.

Theism in all of its many costumes, paints that picture, as it devolved into religious mythology and explored those options as 'real'.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Where does any JW say that there is no concept of being absent from the body? We've been saying that Jesus became absent from his physical body when he was resurrected after three days. We have said that all of his associate rulers will rise to heaven in spirit bodies.

Umm, how could Jesus have been absent from his physical body when he was resurrected after three days..

When he was resurrected in the same body that he was crucified in??

Not only that, but can you please articulate what being absent from the body even means, according to JW theology?

You have the theology of our organization wrong. Do more research on our website if you really want to know our position. We have explained many times what our position is on spirit bodies, physical bodies, and the holy spirit that causes someone to be alive, yet you have missed all that. We have had the pleasure of posting on many threads what we believe about that, with scriptural back-up.

LOL.

Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in the immediate life after death concept, do they? I have that part correct, don't I?

They don't believe this...despite Paul saying.. (2Corin 5:6-8)

6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.

7 For we live by faith, not by sight.

8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.


So, can you please articulate to me, about what Paul meant in verse 6 when he said "as long as we are HOME in the body, we are away from the Lord".

What does it mean to be "home" in the body, OWH?

And then verse 8, Paul stated that he would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

To be present with the Lord after death, is EXACTLY where the thief was going to be, according to what Jesus told him.

And btw, I still await your response as to how the NWT butchers that scripture with the comma, thus changing the context of the verse to fit their theological agenda.

The Rich Man and Lazarus is a metaphorical story, not to be taken literally, as you would agree if you concede that one drop of water on someone's tongue cannot actually quench someone's agony in a fire. Every person and situation in that story stands for something else, such as the "rich man" being allegorical for the Pharisees who were not doing their job of spiritually feeding "Lazarus," or, the common people. One cannot use that story to prove anything about hell-fire or the amount of time between a person's death and their resurrection.
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Yeah, that is a cute little explanation. The problem with it is; sense when did Jesus start naming characters in his stories (parables)? He doesn't.

Since when did the stories (parables) that Jesus gave take place in the spiritual realm, instead of the earthly realm? They don't.

Third, if there is no life after death, then WHY WOULD JESUS GIVE A PARABLE INVOLVING TWO CHARACTERS WHO REMAINED LIVING POST-PHYSICAL DEATH? He wouldn't.

Fourth, do we have other scriptures which talk about life after death (the concept of life beyond the grave)? We do.

Phil 1:21–24

21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know!

23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

Well, will you look at that. Paul said that he desires to "depart and be with Christ".

To "be with Christ" is to be "present with Christ" (2 Corin 5:8).

Jesus to thief "today, you will be with me in paradise".

"you will be with me" means "you will be present with me".

When we die, we will be present with Christ. Paul said it, and more importantly, Jesus said it.

Now, I understand that some groups and organizations tend to believe things contrary to what Jesus said. But I will have to rock with Jesus on this one...and every one.

I have more scriptures as well.

[We_Are_VENOM]

[Replying to William in post #74]

You put a lot of thought into this, eh Will?

I think we can agree that it is all contextual. I would love to discuss more of this with you, but I am having a difficult time putting my thoughts into text, which discourages me from wanting to talk about it.

HOWEVER,

My thing is; a spirit is an unembodied mind, which is our immaterial selves (the essence of who/what we really are).

And my point is, this immaterial self is independent of the body and will continue to exist after death.

[William]

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #76]

My thing is; a spirit is an unembodied mind, which is our immaterial selves (the essence of who/what we really are).

I agree. And every Spirit is an Image of The Spirit - The Mind Behind Creation.

And my point is, this immaterial self is independent of the body and will continue to exist after death.

Agreed.
But not necessarily independent of the soul - that which contains the information pertaining to the Characteristics/Personality which was formed through the interaction of the immaterial with the material.

[onewithhim]

Where does any JW say that there is no concept of being absent from the body? We've been saying that Jesus became absent from his physical body when he was resurrected after three days. We have said that all of his associate rulers will rise to heaven in spirit bodies.

Umm, how could Jesus have been absent from his physical body when he was resurrected after three days..

When he was resurrected in the same body that he was crucified in??

Not only that, but can you please articulate what being absent from the body even means, according to JW theology?

Jesus was NOT "absent from his physical body" for the three days he was dead. Upon being resurrected, he was absent from his physical body. He was raised in the spirit (I Peter 3:18; I Corinthians 15:45). He wasn't resurrected in the same body he was crucified in. That would be taking back his sacrifice.

When the anointed people are "absent from the body," that is what they are when they are resurrected, whether they are resurrected after 2 thousand years or the same day. They have left their physical bodies and are transformed to glorious spirit bodies to be with Christ in heaven.

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[myth-one.com]

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #76]

My thing is; a spirit is an unembodied mind, which is our immaterial selves (the essence of who/what we really are).

I agree. And every Spirit is an Image of The Spirit - The Mind Behind Creation.

And my point is, this immaterial self is independent of the body and will continue to exist after death.

Agreed.
But not necessarily independent of the soul - that which contains the information pertaining to the Characteristics/Personality which was formed through the interaction of the immaterial with the material.

The important thing for both of you to understand is that those beliefs are not supported in the scriptures.

The scriptures describe only two types of living bodies, natural and spiritual:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And each of these body types requires a different birth:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The two type of bodies do not mix. The natural comes first, and the spiritual comes last -- if at all:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

To date, no natural bodied human has been born again of the Spirit, and none will be until they are resurrected at Second Coming:

It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body...

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Man fears things which he does not understand, the unknown. Death is the one thing we cannot try out on a test basis. You are either dead or alive. Furthermore, you cannot discuss death with someone who has experienced it. The scriptures state that the dead know absolutely nothing. Since the dead know knowing, they certainly cannot describe death to the living. Therefore, death is an unknown and we fear it.

As knowledge has progressed over the years we understand more about our physical death. We know that we die. We see decaying animals and know that our bodies end up likewise. The part we do not understand is our personalities, our thinking processes, our emotions, our non-physical processes. These are the processes which many believe separates us from the other animals. Mankind even gives it a name, calling it our "soul," and assigning to each soul eternal life.

Sadly, the truth about eternal life is not to be found in most churches, television evangelistic programs, or crusades. You will find the answers in a book, which many Christian clergy will warn you against reading without careful guidance. That book is the Holy Bible, a translation of the scriptures.

Your explanations above are simply common mankind created explanations which "explain" something which mankind (except for Jesus and possibly the Apostles) cannot possibly understand.

We can only understand things which are of our physical world.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Jesus was NOT "absent from his physical body" for the three days he was dead. Upon being resurrected, he was absent from his physical body.

Sorry, OWH. But that makes no sense whatsoever. But oh well.

He was raised in the spirit (I Peter 3:18; I Corinthians 15:45). He wasn't resurrected in the same body he was crucified in. That would be taking back his sacrifice.

Yeah, he was raised in the spirit which means that his resurrected body is the same body, but it is glorified. His body still had the same wounds the he suffered during the crucifixion (John 20:26-27), yet he wasn't walking around with the pain that he suffered from the experience.

His body was spiritually glorified, while remaining physical.

When the anointed people are "absent from the body," that is what they are when they are resurrected, whether they are resurrected after 2 thousand years or the same day. They have left their physical bodies and are transformed to glorious spirit bodies to be with Christ in heaven.
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If you are still in a physical body, then you aren't absent from the body. SMH.

I don't get it, but ok.

Just continue to ride with false doctrine, I guess.