tam wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:14 pm
[
Replying to PinSeeker in post #64]
Feel free to ignore this post, but I will put it here just in case we can clear up any confusion, because I do not understand how you can continue to make the same point even when the support you provided for your point proved incorrect:
I said this:
And besides all of this, even Christ likened death to a sleep which one would need to be awakened from. Not a conscious awareness. A sleep.
You said this:
Regarding the physical body, yes. The actual person (and his or her conscious awareness) is... somewhere else,
I responded:
That makes no sense. Christ did not say that the flesh sleeps. He said "our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep". Lazarus, the actual person. Not his body, but he, himself.
You responded:
But the people He was speaking to (Mary and Martha, concerning Lazarus, and Jairus, concerning his daughter) could not make any distinction between the body and the self. To them, the physical was all there was. He was speaking to them in terms they could understand. Some did, like Paul, as stated above, but that was after Christ's resurrection.
It is this last response that you have admitted was incorrect.
What I admitted was incorrect was my statement that Jesus was speaking to Mary and Martha regarding Lazarus. I stand by the statement that to
them (Mary, Martha, and Jairus), the physical was all there was, but that's really irrelevant because, as I corrected myself and agreed with you, He was speaking with the apostles. For
them (the apostles), I stand by what I have said since, which is that they could not
fully understand the distinction between body and self, even though they obviously understood the mere fact that there
is a distinction between the two (because He told them). You and I understand that there
is a distinction also, but we cannot
fully understand it, either, the reason being we are not God...
... and I would apply that to the apostles, because they were not God, either...
We can understand it really only in the sense that God has said it is so. Certainly, at the very least, you would acknowledge that it is very possible to understand that something is, but not completely understand the thing itself. This is what David is acknowledging in Psalm 139 (v.6) and what Isaiah is saying poetically in chapter 55 (vv.8-9) of his prophecy. Even all of this is not really germane to the discussion that was going on (and still is), because my point was merely that the temporal, the physical, was and is all that any human being can truly understand because it is all we have
experienced ~ known ~ to this point, and that's true even of the apostles at the time Jesus spoke to them. So my real point you missed I think ~ which I don't fault you for, and like I said is at least partially if not mostly my fault. Hopefully now is at least somewhat clearer to you. If it's not, we'll just have to leave it at that. I am (leaving it at that), anyway.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:14 pm
So then there is (to date) no response to my last post above (in green).
Yes there has been...
What you originally said "makes no sense" (in post 54) was in response to this exchange:
Tam: Christ likened death to a sleep which one would need to be awakened from. Not a conscious awareness. A sleep.
PinSeeker: Regarding the physical body, yes. The actual person (and his or her conscious awareness) is... somewhere else.
And you said that it made no sense
because, as you said, "Christ did not say that the flesh sleeps. He said "our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep". Lazarus, the actual person. Not his body, but he, himself." So, a couple of things here, which I've said before, but hey, you say I haven't answered to this, but I will again:
1. This pushed me into making the point, which you have agreed with, that there is a distinction between the self and the body, my point being that He was not referring to both the self and the body, but the body alone. And back to the above exchange, I agree (if this is what you were actually saying) that the body is not consciously aware of anything; it cannot be if it is not inhabited by or animated with the self.
2. As I have said before (in post 59; this is a cut-and-paste), (w)hen Jesus says "our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep," He's really saying a couple of things, one that Lazarus is still our friend (he still exists), but that his body is "asleep," which is to say that "our friend Lazarus" (and Jairus's daughter) were not present and inhabiting/animating their bodies and that their actual selves were elsewhere. And yet again, we know this is true because Jesus told the thief crucified on His right would be with Him
that day in paradise (Luke 23:43). And then when you asked about it again in the next post, I said (in post 61), as used here and elsewhere, this "sleep" regarding the body is a euphemism, really, to say that the self is not present and inhabiting/animating their bodies. The
body "sleeps," or "has fallen asleep." Now, to add to this just a bit, we can for sure assume that the body of the thief on Jesus's right (and the one on His left) ~ both very much dead, "asleep"... not inhabited or animated by the self ~ was (were) surely taken down from the cross and buried, but, as Jesus is not a liar, of course, the thief on His right was surely with Him in paradise that very day. And to be with Him here in this verse does not mean (although it is certainly true) mere proximity to Him, but actual intimate fellowship with and pure enjoyment of Him and His presence, which is not possible without one's own presence and consciousness.
So, I absolutely did answer you last post above in green, multiple times now. And, it does make sense. It seems to me the reason you think it "doesn't make any sense" is really just a sort of coded "I disagree," because you fully acknowledge the distinction between the body and the self. But whether that's the case or not is really not a matter of concern to me. It is what it is. Even if meant in earnest, that it makes no sense is only a personal opinion (although certainly not of no value), and I get it.
Grace and peace to you.
