Do we choose God or does God choose us?

[Manu]

Just want to know some perspectives out there.

[McCulloch]

It’s interesting to read that God must appear to some people here before they would believe in Him. This is a blatant, hypocritical excuse to disbelieve in God.

I disbelieve in God because there is insufficient evidence to believe in God. His literal appearance would be sufficient evidence, but I'm not waiting for that to happen.

Didn’t satan and the fallen angels in heaven see God face to face ?

If you assume that Satan and the fallen angels exist. I have about as much evidence to believe in them as I do God.

Did this stop them from opposing Him ?

Is there anything in the Christian mythology which indicates that Satan or the fallen angels disbelieve?

Did this stop them from trying to influence the good angels to their side …

Like many fictional bad guys, Satan is portrayed as being really stupid. Knowing that God is all powerful, why would he oppose him?

Reading about Jesus Christ in the bible is good enough to believe in Him, to start that one seed of faith …

I've read the Bible. I'm still not convinced.

W/o a relationship with God, some deem themselves as equal to abraham, moses and the holy prophets in that they so desire to behold the beauty of God and His manifestation to them in order to evoke belief in their hearts. What a sham !

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal ... Don't you? I'm just saying that I will not believe in an omniscient omnipotent supernatural being (God) without evidence. Should I?

Just look at the wicked nature of the human specie and I wonder how God even tolerates us.

The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

and then he did not kill the humans on the day that they ate from it.

The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them."

and then he still did not kill the humans.

Most parents learn that repeated idle threats start to lose their value after a while.

[Confused]

It’s interesting to read that God must appear to some people here before they would believe in Him. This is a blatant, hypocritical excuse to disbelieve in God.

Didn’t satan and the fallen angels in heaven see God face to face ? Did this stop them from opposing Him ? Did this stop them from trying to influence the good angels to their side …

Reading about Jesus Christ in the bible is good enough to believe in Him, to start that one seed of faith …

W/o a relationship with God, some deem themselves as equal to abraham, moses and the holy prophets in that they so desire to behold the beauty of God and His manifestation to them in order to evoke belief in their hearts. What a sham !

Just look at the wicked nature of the human specie and I wonder how God even tolerates us.

No, it didn't stop satan and the angels from opposing him. So what did he do, he let loose their reign of influence on mankind. Gee thanks.

But to start that one seed of faith, one must understand what they are reading. If they have no relationship with christ, how can we understand what we are reading?

The wicked nature of the human species? I'm sorry, I don't consider myself wicked. But don't worry, I blieve that when god has had enough, revelations is suppose to happen. Won't you be lucky that you will be included in the rapture so you won't have to suffer. Tell me, how many of your freinds and family will not be included. How comfortable and happy will you be in heaven knowing the torture they are enduring. I know, in your opinion, they made their bed, now they must lie in it. Or let me hear another original: I don't have any freinds who aren't in good with God, so all my friends and family will be there with me. I say kudos to you. I wish you all the best during that event.

[bernee51]

If God were to "force" us to know that this particular display was God, then, that completely takes free will out of the picture, which is what It gave us in the first place. The freedom to choose between different things.

I disagree. We can do with that knowledge as we wish.

It is sort of like someone anonomously depositing $100000 in my bank account. I did not ask for it but it does not effect whether I spend it, save it, ignore it, or give it away. My free will is in no way compromised.

[bernee51]

It’s interesting to read that God must appear to some people here before they would believe in Him. This is a blatant, hypocritical excuse to disbelieve in God.

Why? You expect people to believe without evidence. How do I know that the god you believe in is the correct one - or indeed a god at all? It may be some lesser supernatural being who is fooling you.

Didn’t satan and the fallen angels in heaven see God face to face ? Did this stop them from opposing Him ? Did this stop them from trying to influence the good angels to their side

The only evidence we have of satan and the fallen angels is in the bible. There is no reason to believe it is anything else other than a work of myth and metaphor.

Why should the bible be considered any more valid in its claims than the Bhagavad Gita?

Reading about Jesus Christ in the bible is good enough to believe in Him, to start that one seed of faith …

The only evidence we have of Jesus the Christ is in the bible. There is no reason to believe it is anything else other than a work of myth and metaphor.

Why should the bible be considered any more valid in its claims than the Bhagavad Gita?

W/o a relationship with God, .../

What exactly does "relationship with god" mean?

Just look at the wicked nature of the human specie and I wonder how God even tolerates us.

I believe the intrinsic nature of man is the opposite as you. If it weren't so we would not have culturally evolved.

To think your fellow human beings are instrinsically evil is (IMHO) sick.

[methylatedghosts]

It’s interesting to read that God must appear to some people here before they would believe in Him. This is a blatant, hypocritical excuse to disbelieve in God.

Didn’t satan and the fallen angels in heaven see God face to face ? Did this stop them from opposing Him ? Did this stop them from trying to influence the good angels to their side …

But you see, "Satan and the fallen angels" still know god exists - because they saw him face to face. Believing in god is not the same as following him. Not believing in god isn't the same as opposing him. Satan knows god exists, because satan actually saw god. Why can't people be the same? Why can't people be able to see god - then they'd know he exists and then they'd be able to choose whether or not to oppose him.

(this above really hasn't got anything to do with what I believe, I'm just stating it to point out a little flaw in the above argument)

Reading about Jesus Christ in the bible is good enough to believe in Him, to start that one seed of faith …

W/o a relationship with God, some deem themselves as equal to abraham, moses and the holy prophets in that they so desire to behold the beauty of God and His manifestation to them in order to evoke belief in their hearts. What a sham !

Just look at the wicked nature of the human specie and I wonder how God even tolerates us.

Because god actually doesn't care what we do? (my belief)

[Confused]

It’s interesting to read that God must appear to some people here before they would believe in Him. This is a blatant, hypocritical excuse to disbelieve in God.

Didn’t satan and the fallen angels in heaven see God face to face ? Did this stop them from opposing Him ? Did this stop them from trying to influence the good angels to their side …

But you see, "Satan and the fallen angels" still know god exists - because they saw him face to face. Believing in god is not the same as following him. Not believing in god isn't the same as opposing him. Satan knows god exists, because satan actually saw god. Why can't people be the same? Why can't people be able to see god - then they'd know he exists and then they'd be able to choose whether or not to oppose him.

(this above really hasn't got anything to do with what I believe, I'm just stating it to point out a little flaw in the above argument)

Reading about Jesus Christ in the bible is good enough to believe in Him, to start that one seed of faith …

W/o a relationship with God, some deem themselves as equal to abraham, moses and the holy prophets in that they so desire to behold the beauty of God and His manifestation to them in order to evoke belief in their hearts. What a sham !

Just look at the wicked nature of the human specie and I wonder how God even tolerates us.

Because god actually doesn't care what we do? (my belief)

Why cant we see God like the angels etc.. I can only anwer with the standard answer I get when I ask the same question. Becuase somehow, him showing himself to us physically negates blind faith. Why blind faith is so important, I have no clue.

Back to the thread, I believe God chooses us because he created us (or so I have been told) with the knowledge of who would follow his path and who wouldn't, yet he still created both types of people. He Chose to allow those who wouldn't believe to be born, as well as those who would. But since he already knew who would follow the path to him, he chose.

[methylatedghosts]

If God were to "force" us to know that this particular display was God, then, that completely takes free will out of the picture, which is what It gave us in the first place. The freedom to choose between different things.

I disagree. We can do with that knowledge as we wish.

It is sort of like someone anonomously depositing $100000 in my bank account. I did not ask for it but it does not effect whether I spend it, save it, ignore it, or give it away. My free will is in no way compromised.

Sorry I ignored this earlier, I couldn't think of a reply. But I have one now.

God forcing us to know he existed takes out the free will of us choosing to know or not know God exists.

Someone depositing all that money into your bank takes out your choice on whether or not you wanted him/her to put it there. Sure, you might say "of course I'd want someone to do this" but, someone doing this without consulting you is removing your actual choice about it from the picture

Difference, you accept the money being in there, but had no choice about whether or not it was deposited.

[topaz]

It’s interesting to read that God must appear to some people here before they would believe in Him. This is a blatant, hypocritical excuse to disbelieve in God.

I disbelieve in God because there is insufficient evidence to believe in God. His literal appearance would be sufficient evidence, but I'm not waiting for that to happen.

“insufficient’ evidence … this mean there is evidence but in your profound opinion, it is ‘insufficient’. So, with your own words, you testify that there IS evidence. I rest my case.

Didn’t satan and the fallen angels in heaven see God face to face ?

If you assume that Satan and the fallen angels exist. I have about as much evidence to believe in them as I do God.

You are exactly the type satan loves. Not believing that he exist gives him so much more power to deal with you w/o being noticed.

Did this stop them from opposing Him ?

Is there anything in the Christian mythology which indicates that Satan or the fallen angels disbelieve?

Do they worship God … do they praise Him and obey Him …

Did this stop them from trying to influence the good angels to their side …

Like many fictional bad guys, Satan is portrayed as being really stupid. Knowing that God is all powerful, why would he oppose him?

Again, poor interpretation on your part. Satan isn’t stupid … at all. He is the smartest of all of God’s creation in and under heaven … and … he knows this. Of all God’s creation of angels [man was not created then], satan was No. 1. With this station, he was given the necessary powers to carry out his duties. The powers he received was tremendous so much that he actually believe he can vie for God’s throne and be worshipped as a god. Ambition took the better of him and the rest is history. There was no precedent of disobedience prior to satan. Scripture says satan is the origin of evil … and … he didn’t have to eat from the tree of good and evil to be evil. B/c if he did, the whole angellic population would be damned as the human specie is.

This brings me to another point. Not good to be too smart or too wise. It gets to the head. It destroys. The only entity who can handle infinite wisdom and knowledge is God. He cannot be tempted. We, God’s creation can be tempted and we almost always fail.

Satan’s success with the human specie lies in his power of deception. He hides, he lies low, unseen, unbelieved, not understood. Such an environment provides a breeding ground for unlimited success. This is where christians have a part to play. To expose his methodology, strategy, and take his acts captive and subject to Christ Jesus.

Reading about Jesus Christ in the bible is good enough to believe in Him, to start that one seed of faith …

I've read the Bible. I'm still not convinced.

Tell this to God when you stand before Him on that day.

Just look at the wicked nature of the human specie and I wonder how God even tolerates us.

The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

and then he did not kill the humans on the day that they ate from it.

Again, poor interpretation. After eating the fruit from that forbidden tree, adam and eve who were immortal up to that stage, lost their immortality forever or so it seems, until God provided redemption in Christ Jesus … a most loving and merciful God indeed.

The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them."

and then he still did not kill the humans.

Most parents learn that repeated idle threats start to lose their value after a while.

Ge 6:7-8 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

You lie. The above verse showed God’s thoughts of destroying life on earth … and He did … the flood destroyed the … whole earth … except for Noah. It is a relief to know that there will always be a handful who will cleave to God, who will be mocked at, hated for their belief … yet nothing can separate them from God. What a glorious gift of choice !

[McCulloch]

I disbelieve in God because there is insufficient evidence to believe in God. His literal appearance would be sufficient evidence, but I'm not waiting for that to happen.

“insufficient’ evidence … this mean there is evidence but in your profound opinion, it is ‘insufficient’. So, with your own words, you testify that there IS evidence. I rest my case.

There are facts, such as the writings of the apologists of a new religion which are put forth as evidence. As evidence, I find them wanting.

Like many fictional bad guys, Satan is portrayed as being really stupid. Knowing that God is all powerful, why would he oppose him?

Again, poor interpretation on your part. Satan isn’t stupid … at all. He is the smartest of all of God’s creation in and under heaven … and … he knows this. Of all God’s creation of angels [man was not created then], satan was No. 1. With this station, he was given the necessary powers to carry out his duties. The powers he received was tremendous so much that he actually believe he can vie for God’s throne and be worshipped as a god. Ambition took the better of him and the rest is history. There was no precedent of disobedience prior to satan. Scripture says satan is the origin of evil … and … he didn’t have to eat from the tree of good and evil to be evil. B/c if he did, the whole angellic population would be damned as the human specie is.

This story confirms that in Christian mythology, Satan is stupid. If he knew the omnipotent creator God and deliberately tried to usurp God he was stupid.

This brings me to another point. Not good to be too smart or too wise. It gets to the head. It destroys. The only entity who can handle infinite wisdom and knowledge is God. He cannot be tempted. We, God’s creation can be tempted and we almost always fail.

Well, we agree on one thing: Reason, intelligence, learning and rationality are enemies of faith.

Reading about Jesus Christ in the bible is good enough to believe in Him, to start that one seed of faith …

I've read the Bible. I'm still not convinced.

Tell this to God when you stand before Him on that day.

There is a name for this fallacy. I just cannot think of it right now.

[topaz]

No, it didn't stop satan and the angels from opposing him. So what did he do, he let loose their reign of influence on mankind. Gee thanks.

Genesis says the earth was darkness. Yes, God sent them to hell which incidentally, is earth … ‘nether parts of the earth’.

They were sent here prior to the creation of the human specie. And then, God created us. So now, the question is WHY did God put us here specifically to be deceived, tormented and even destroyed by satan? Tell me what you think.

But to start that one seed of faith, one must understand what they are reading. If they have no relationship with christ, how can we understand what we are reading?

To start that one seed of faith, you don’t require in-depth knowledge. To believe that Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh [John 1:1-end], who died for everybody, to light up our dark minds, to die as an atonement for our sins, to spend 3 days in hell before ascending to Father God … is truth that anyone can accept … in faith, of course. At this juncture, no one can expect a new believer to understand even the simplest teaching. This is the first step. Once you take this step, you go on to study scripture. Then, you put your one seed of faith into practice. It multiplies … and it goes on growing. Eventually, you’ll receive the Holy Spirit, the Seal of God, w/o which you are not His. Then, the Holy Spirit takes over and He leads you into the knowledge of God … in-depth. All of God’s people MUST know His Word so that they will not be fooled by satan.

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The wicked nature of the human species? I'm sorry, I don't consider myself wicked. But don't worry, I blieve that when god has had enough, revelations is suppose to happen. Won't you be lucky that you will be included in the rapture so you won't have to suffer.

I detect sarcasm. But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. Luck … cannot be in the vocabulary of a believer. I CHOOSE Jesus Christ and I live by His Law. See, choice … not luck. I choose to live according to the Law b/c I know that if I don’t, I bring disaster upon myself. Nothing happens by luck or chance. Also, there is no such thing as coincidence.

Tell me, how many of your freinds and family will not be included. How comfortable and happy will you be in heaven knowing the torture they are enduring. I know, in your opinion, they made their bed, now they must lie in it. Or let me hear another original: I don't have any freinds who aren't in good with God, so all my friends and family will be there with me. I say kudos to you. I wish you all the best during that event.

Actually, I was not born into a christian family. It is not a happy thought but I understand that we all have choices and we live or die by them. Having said that, I also know how to bring them into the saving grace of Jesus Christ, my beloved Saviour. Also, I don’t have to preach a word to them. Just a prayer … it works wonders, believe me. Never underestimate the power of prayer.