Challenge, prove that Jesus is "God"

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:39 am

I have a challenge for Trinitarians. Prove that Jesus Christ is God from Scripture. But here's the rub, do so without using any references from the Gospel of John, or any of the Epistles or the Book of Revelation.

Can you do it?

tigger2 · Post by **tigger2** » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:39 pm

[Replying to post 69 by The Tanager]

I don't see why I need to have a verse outside of John 1:1 to show this, unless you can show it definitely does not show Jesus is God.

If you are going to keep insisting that John 1:1 proves that Jesus is God, start a new discussion of John 1:1c and I will show you why it is not true.

Post by **The Tanager** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:29 pm

tigger2 wrote:If you are going to keep insisting that John 1:1 proves that Jesus is God, start a new discussion of John 1:1c and I will show you why it is not true.

You brought up John 20 in this thread to speak against the interpretation of Mark 2 that I have, so why can't I talk about John 1:1 in relation to it? Also, feel free to come on over to the "Which is Risker?" thread to talk about John 1:1 and others.

tigger2 · Post by **tigger2** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:21 pm

The Tanager wrote:
tigger2 wrote:If you are going to keep insisting that John 1:1 proves that Jesus is God, start a new discussion of John 1:1c and I will show you why it is not true.
You brought up John 20 in this thread to speak against the interpretation of Mark 2 that I have, so why can't I talk about John 1:1 in relation to it? Also, feel free to come on over to the "Which is Risker?" thread to talk about John 1:1 and others.

Please read the post (#61) at the top of this page.

I am not speaking of your using John 1:1 references on this thread, but a moderator is. I simply am objecting to your insistence that John 1:1 proves Jesus is God!

If you don't wish to discuss it fully, then don't. In either case, we are asked not to use examples from John on this thread.

Post by **The Tanager** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:00 pm

tigger2 wrote:Please read the post (#61) at the top of this page.

I am not speaking of your using John 1:1 references on this thread, but a moderator is. I simply am objecting to your insistence that John 1:1 proves Jesus is God!

If you don't wish to discuss it fully, then don't. In either case, we are asked not to use examples from John on this thread.

Ultimately, we are discussing Mark 2. I think it is okay to bring passages from John to bear upon our discussion of Mark 2, which fits under the original intent of this thread. It's a blurry area, but we had been allowed to do that throughout this whole thread, but as I said in post #62, I'd be fine moving the discussion elsewhere if the moderator cleared that up. I even gave you another thread where we could fully discuss it, "Which is Risker?". Come on over, because I would love to hear your thoughts and challenge my own on that verse and others that you would probably have thoughts on that definitely don't fit in this thread.

tigger2 · Post by **tigger2** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:52 pm

The Tanager wrote:
tigger2 wrote:Please read the post (#61) at the top of this page.

I am not speaking of your using John 1:1 references on this thread, but a moderator is. I simply am objecting to your insistence that John 1:1 proves Jesus is God!

If you don't wish to discuss it fully, then don't. In either case, we are asked not to use examples from John on this thread.
Ultimately, we are discussing Mark 2. I think it is okay to bring passages from John to bear upon our discussion of Mark 2, which fits under the original intent of this thread. It's a blurry area, but we had been allowed to do that throughout this whole thread, but as I said in post #62, I'd be fine moving the discussion elsewhere if the moderator cleared that up. I even gave you another thread where we could fully discuss it, "Which is Risker?". Come on over, because I would love to hear your thoughts and challenge my own on that verse and others that you would probably have thoughts on that definitely don't fit in this thread.

I would very much prefer a discussion limited to John 1:1c. How about a head-to-head discussion? https://debatingchristianity.com/forum ... php?f=40

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:29 am

The Tanager wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:Exactly. We know giving authority to forgive sins can be delegated but will need to look elsewhere to establish if this was the case forJesus. So outside of John 1:1 what scripture are you going to use as recall? It can't be Mark 2 (since it's the scripture in question) I presume its not John 20, so which scripture are you turning to to support your point?
We are ultimately talking about Mark 2. The question there is where Jesus' ability to forgive sins comes from. John 20 gives us one way that can happen (the If-S conditional, as I called it). There is another way that can happen (the If-G conditional, as I called it). I don't see where the John 20 way applies to Jesus in Scripture, but feel free to point that Scripture out. I bring in John 1:1 to show how the If-G conditional applies to Jesus. I don't see why I need to have a verse outside of John 1:1 to show this, unless you can show it definitely does not show Jesus is God. There are other verses (as you are aware from that other thread we are talking in right now), but I'm not sure why you think John 1:1 shouldn't be talked about.

I don't see any other scriptures in your response, so would it be fair to say John 1:1 is your only support?

Post by **The Tanager** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:32 am

[Replying to post 74 by tigger2]

Okay. Go ahead and get the process started.

Post by **The Tanager** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:42 am

JehovahsWitness wrote:I don't see any other scriptures in your response, so would it be fair to say John 1:1 is your only support?

We must only use Mark, Matthew, Luke-Acts and the Tanakh in this discussion. So, if you want to keep disputing Mark 2 here you'd have to find something other than John 20:19-23 to do so. I think that is unfair to you, so I'm just going to continue our discussion on the other thread. It is point #4 and in my next post I will try to sum it up there and you can respond there.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:04 pm

[Replying to post 77 by The Tanager]

Agreed.

So can you now list the scriptures you will be using here allowed in the this thread or do you have none?

Post by **The Tanager** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:39 pm

[Replying to post 78 by JehovahsWitness]

This is the argument concerning Mark 2, under the strict terms of this thread. I think these terms are more unfair to your position than my own, but if you want to do it, I'll go through the thought exercise with you.

P1: Only God can (ultimately) forgive sins (Micah 7:18 and the implications of the rest of the Tanakh)
P2: Jesus can (ultimately) forgive sins (Mark 2)
C: Therefore, Jesus is God.

What is the scripture that contradicts that?