When the Bible does not promote or condone, then what?

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
micatala
Site Supporter
Posts: 8338
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:04 pm

When the Bible does not promote or condone, then what?

Post #1

Post by micatala »

This thread is prompted by the often-made statement.
I have asked you to provide any evidence "from the Bible" (since you have offered that you are a priest), where sodomy/perderasty-homosexuality-Gay, is celebrated, supported, condoned, promoted, or preached as acceptable, anywhere in the New Testament
The implication is that, since the Bible nowhere promotes, condones, or 'celebrates' homosexuality, this is further indication it should be condemned.

Question for debate:

Is this a valid conclusion?

Are there other examples of behaviors, views, etc. that are not promoted, condoned, or celebrated in the Bible, but that Christians typically do not condemn?

1John2_26
Guru
Posts: 1760
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:38 pm
Location: US

Post #71

Post by 1John2_26 »

melikio

I'll take some of that good lovin' but hey, no pinching!!!

I can see us all now, on a picnic, not judging, not preaching, hust accepting all as they are.

Of course the Bible Thumpers across the park will be giving us the evil eye and making themselves miserable because we exist and are enjoying life!!!

Grumpy
Little league and picnics, Church socials and happy get togethers. I don't see that in the leftist ranting hordes constantly marching to force Christians to alter their lifestyles to celebrate STD behaviors and those that get them from a life of wanton lascivious licentiousness. Or godless humanism that has literally taught the young that there are no absolutes or a future worth living.

Certainly no happiness in the secular crowds trying to find a way to invent a new kind of family, when it is so clear that deviating from the real family has only injured the children wandering around wondering "why" they were born into a brpken family.

Yet now we see both the sexual deviant and those that deny a god "sounding so Christian."

Bringing people the good news is not defined by presenting chaos as the solution to problems or a lifestyle of substance and value.

It is not looks of anger that have Christians grimacing at anti-Christians and "the lost." It is a face contorted from pity and sadness. How many people have died from a life of debauchery? There is a quilt with the names of many that have been entered into the record of that life lived for the quest of fleshly desires reining supreme over the caring about others.

Now those that have always been in open opposition of Christians see the successful life of worth in their lives and now try so desperately to either claim to be a version, or use the languge self-gratification.

The Bible does not condone a faith devoid of God or of conscience.

Watching people that live their lives for pure selfishness and their personal gratification is always going to evoke a dramatic and emotional response from the followers of the Risen Christ.

User avatar
Grumpy
Banned
Banned
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:58 am
Location: North Carolina

Post #72

Post by Grumpy »

melikio

John wrote
Little league and picnics, Church socials and happy get togethers. I don't see that in the leftist ranting hordes constantly marching to force Christians to alter their lifestyles to celebrate STD behaviors and those that get them from a life of wanton lascivious licentiousness. Or godless humanism that has literally taught the young that there are no absolutes or a future worth living.
Do you speak Al??? It's so hard to understand what he's trying to say when he looks like he's ready for a good shave! Is he trying to fit as many lies as possible in a single paragraph? Sounds to me like he's been watching his collection of gay porno, not looking at our simple picnic.
Certainly no happiness in the secular crowds trying to find a way to invent a new kind of family, when it is so clear that deviating from the real family has only injured the children wandering around wondering "why" they were born into a brpken family.
I'm a very happy guy, how 'bout you??? Let's go throw a Frizbee with my dogs, that guy across the park is weirding me out, watch all the kids(and the dogs too), what he's got might be contageous.

Grumpy 8-)

User avatar
Cathar1950
Site Supporter
Posts: 10503
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:12 pm
Location: Michigan(616)
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #73

Post by Cathar1950 »

Little league and picnics, Church socials and happy get togethers. I don't see that in the leftist ranting hordes constantly marching to force Christians to alter their lifestyles to celebrate STD behaviors and those that get them from a life of wanton lascivious licentiousness. Or godless humanism that has literally taught the young that there are no absolutes or a future worth living.
Little League Picnics, church socials and happy get-togethers what are you talking about? Is this something exclusive to your religion?
Any one can and do enjoy such things. Is there a point or do you just stick stuff anywhere to fill in the nonsense of the rest of the paragraph? I do not see any leftist hordes marching or forcing Christians to do anything or alter their life styles. No one is celebrating SDT behaviors. You seem to think it is just homosexuals. But you are wrong. Humanist godless or not are not teaching that there are no absolutes or a future not worth living. You seem to think unless they are following what you think is some kind of biblical mandate that there are no rules and no meaning. Following the bible is not even moral behavior it is obedience. You view of the bible offers even less.
Certainly no happiness in the secular crowds trying to find a way to invent a new kind of family, when it is so clear that deviating from the real family has only injured the children wandering around wondering "why" they were born into a brpken family.
Is this more rhetorical nonsense from you? Broken families exist in half the Christians lives too. Some times “real” families mess up their children, yes even Christians. Sometimes they are not born in a broken family but they happen, even to Christian bible-believers.
You have a one-dimensional view that often excludes your own problems.

Yet now we see both the sexual deviant and those that deny a god "sounding so Christian."
So you think that is a bad thing. When I was hungry you feed me? Does that ring a bell?
Bringing people the good news is not defined by presenting chaos as the solution to problems or a lifestyle of substance and value.
That makes no sense. I bet you wanted to mean something.
There is a quilt with the names of many that have been entered into the record of that life lived for the quest of fleshly desires reining supreme over the caring about others.
It is a disease not fleshly desires killing them. It is not limited to homosexuals. It is not some fleshly desire reining supreme ignoring the caring of others. It seems the quilt if any thing is a sign of caring.
The Bible does not condone a faith devoid of God or of conscience.
What would be a faith devoid of God in your mind?
Watching people that live their lives for pure selfishness and their personal gratification is always going to evoke a dramatic and emotional response from the followers of the Risen Christ.
I don’t think it is pure selfishness is the subject. You are interjecting that into your definitions. Yes you are dramatic and emotional among other flaws. You are getting desperate.

1John2_26
Guru
Posts: 1760
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:38 pm
Location: US

Post #74

Post by 1John2_26 »

Desperate like the new liberal parroting of Christian morality we see now among those that for years only denied and denigrated Christians and Christianity were worth anything at all.

Now we see even avowed anti-Christians mimicking a morality they openly dissent of.

The Bible does not condone, nor promote, yoking Christians with unbelievers, but just examining each side and allowing the weeds with the wheat.

User avatar
Wyvern
Under Probation
Posts: 3059
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:50 pm

Post #75

Post by Wyvern »

1John2_26 wrote:Desperate like the new liberal parroting of Christian morality we see now among those that for years only denied and denigrated Christians and Christianity were worth anything at all.

Now we see even avowed anti-Christians mimicking a morality they openly dissent of.

The Bible does not condone, nor promote, yoking Christians with unbelievers, but just examining each side and allowing the weeds with the wheat.
John, I can't help but think you have finally gone off the deep end and totally bought into the caricature that you have constructed about people that aren't exactly like you. Claiming picnics and get togethers as purely christian goes beyond laughable to insane. If you won't go to a psychologist at least talk this out with your local clergy.

User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 20864
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 214 times
Been thanked: 368 times
Contact:

Post #76

Post by otseng »

Grumpy wrote:It's so hard to understand what he's trying to say when he looks like he's ready for a good shave! Is he trying to fit as many lies as possible in a single paragraph? Sounds to me like he's been watching his collection of gay porno, not looking at our simple picnic.
Please restrict your comments to arguments rather than about other posters. Thanks.

1John2_26
Guru
Posts: 1760
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:38 pm
Location: US

Post #77

Post by 1John2_26 »

Wyvern,

What does light have to do with darkness other than to expose what it hides? In terms of my Biblical exegesis and defense of the Gospel? The comparison of "goodlold fashioned" little league and family picnics is the "traditional" America once the common example of "Christian society."

I do tire of having to break things down to their basics when a witty mind should no better. I should at least get some credit for thinking that my oppostion knows what I mean. From the knee-jerk reations I get from some that "state" they are my "enemy," makes it easy to see; they do know right from wrong and know exactly what I mean. Their reactions say a lot and in a debate it is all about "sides" of the issue being debated.
1John2_26 wrote:
Desperate like the new liberal parroting of Christian morality we see now among those that for years only denied and denigrated Christians and Christianity were worth anything at all.

Now we see even avowed anti-Christians mimicking a morality they openly dissent of.

The Bible does not condone, nor promote, yoking Christians with unbelievers, but just examining each side and allowing the weeds with the wheat.


These are very common messages about right and wrong. And about what Christians should look out for. Very common.
John, I can't help but think you have finally gone off the deep end and totally bought into the caricature that you have constructed about people that aren't exactly like you.
Only in the Readers Digest version of rebuttals that edit my rebuttals in the comeback. This is a typical political ploy. Ignoring simple facts when they make the ringing in ears get nasty.
Claiming picnics and get togethers as purely Christian goes beyond laughable to insane.
"Traditional" American images that really happened. Christian images. And of course they cross ethnic lines.
If you won't go to a psychologist at least talk this out with your local clergy.
The ones that call me for research advice or the ones "referring medication" to children, instead of showing them morality? Of course the nuclear family has been shown to prevent many children from needing a shrink. How many fatherless children are "in the system?" Visit your local Juvenile Hall or Group Home and see?

Rememebr that Christ Jesus does not condone a "broken home." In fact his desription of family and marriage is immutable huh?

Unlessssssss of course, He was just a guy with some neat "take it or leave it" advice. Kind the liberal's idea of a first century (CE) advice comlumnist.

But certainly no one of absolute influence.

Certainly NOT the Christ Jesus of the Bible, but what the hey. Things change right?

I guess now we can consider a gang related shooting in a park a new version picnic. The meaning of things changing and all.

1John2_26
Guru
Posts: 1760
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:38 pm
Location: US

Post #78

Post by 1John2_26 »

Quote:
Little league and picnics, Church socials and happy get togethers. I don't see that in the leftist ranting hordes constantly marching to force Christians to alter their lifestyles to celebrate STD behaviors and those that get them from a life of wanton lascivious licentiousness. Or godless humanism that has literally taught the young that there are no absolutes or a future worth living.


Little League Picnics, church socials and happy get-togethers what are you talking about? Is this something exclusive to your religion?
What does "traditional family values" and "Christians" have in common? Synonym.
Any one can and do enjoy such things. Is there a point or do you just stick stuff anywhere to fill in the nonsense of the rest of the paragraph?
I am not a liberal theologian. Most people seem to know that. "Non" sense is not my gig.
I do not see any leftist hordes marching or forcing Christians to do anything or alter their life styles.
Soulforce.org. Go there. They are demanding just that. Harrassment and all.
No one is celebrating SDT behaviors. You seem to think it is just homosexuals. But you are wrong. Humanist godless or not are not teaching that there are no absolutes or a future not worth living.
To a Christian, a future without Christ Jesus is a future not worth living. Eternally so. Click on "the Bible" at any book store. That's a joke son. I . . . am . . . literally . . . saying . . . "Read the Bible with a New Testament in it. . . Read the New Testament. . .."

It will give you knowledge of what Christians believe.
You seem to think unless they are following what you think is some kind of biblical mandate that there are no rules and no meaning.
And what is the anti-Christian proclaiming? Follow secularism. No deviating.
Following the bible is not even moral behavior it is obedience. You view of the bible offers even less.


Yet common sense stands in opposition to your point of view. Christians proclaim a man should be a good person and if a father love his wife and children and take care of them, The way Christ Jesus indicated when He defined marriage and divorce as breaking up a joining of a man and a woman.

And-that-that-was-bad.

We Christians call that "moral advice." From God.
Quote:
Certainly no happiness in the secular crowds trying to find a way to invent a new kind of family, when it is so clear that deviating from the real family has only injured the children wandering around wondering "why" they were born into a brpken family.

Is this more rhetorical nonsense from you? Broken families exist in half the Christians lives too.
Guess they should have followed their own advice. The advice they got from God. Look what happens when you don't follow God's advice.
Some times “real” families mess up their children, yes even Christians.
So then men can marry men now? Where's the logic in that? You don't like broken families so you are going to invent a new "kind" of family?

Certainly not what the Bible condones.
Sometimes they are not born in a broken family but they happen, even to Christian bible-believers.
And? And? And? And?

The Bible promotes only a "returning" to the way of God. For Christians that is. The Bible does not promote or condone letting chaos become a new definition of logic.
You have a one-dimensional view that often excludes your own problems.
Really? What "problems" am I in denial of? My confidence comes from the Rock of Ages.

Not from "things change, because we don't like the Bible."

Quote:
Yet now we see both the sexual deviant and those that deny a god "sounding so Christian."

So you think that is a bad thing. When I was hungry you feed me? Does that ring a bell?
Compared to: "Sodomizing forty guys a month and we offer condoms?" Or: "Pregnant? Don't like it" Kill your unborn child?" Or: "Don't get a job and we'll take money from honest people so you can stay crack-addicted and lazy?"

Or: "The Word was with God and the Word was God. No 'it' wasn't because evolution means there is no God."

Those offerings?

Things change?
Quote:
Bringing people the good news is not defined by presenting chaos as the solution to problems or a lifestyle of substance and value.

That makes no sense. I bet you wanted to mean something.


Atheism and secularism and humanism versus Christ Jesus as God. Plain enough? I'll have more time Thursday to braek things down even further if necessary.
Quote:
There is a quilt with the names of many that have been entered into the record of that life lived for the quest of fleshly desires reining supreme over the caring about others.

It is a disease not fleshly desires killing them.
In America AIDS was spread through promiscuity and drug use. Clear enough?
It is not limited to homosexuals.
True. The drug addicts were not all gay. I'm only guessing. But AIDS transmission I have pretty accurately as history serves me.
It is not some fleshly desire reining supreme ignoring the caring of others.
Back up and see what "cuased the spread of AIDS." Promiscuity and drug addicts sharing with others. Not exactly the Gospel kiind though.
It seems the quilt if any thing is a sign of caring.
It is just a tombstone made of cloth. I know some of the names on it.
Quote:
The Bible does not condone a faith devoid of God or of conscience.

What would be a faith devoid of God in your mind?


Humanism. Secularism. What Liberalism has become. Everyone knows what I think on that matter. There is no denying that even from my greatest adversaries here. Also of course, a faith saying "do what thou wilt." The last one of course does recognize the god status given to Molech, Baal, and Satan though.
Quote:
Watching people that live their lives for pure selfishness and their personal gratification is always going to evoke a dramatic and emotional response from the followers of the Risen Christ.

I don’t think it is pure selfishness is the subject.
Repentance is the key. I notice with much interest that repenting is seen as "not enough" to erase sins to some people on these threads. Yet, in the Bible, to God, forgiveness means erasing the hard drive of data on the eternal computer of debt.
You are interjecting that into your definitions.
No I am not. I am countering leftist/liberal motives. I am showing what their definitions have altered from the original.
Yes you are dramatic and emotional among other flaws. You are getting desperate.
Desperation is how you must paint me to make yourself feel better? My confidence is no cover and most of my opposition knows that all too well. I have never once denied my flaws and I have never lied about my adversaries. I just present facts and remain satisfied about the fallout.

Bubbeye.

melikio
Guru
Posts: 1715
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 1:56 pm
Location: U.S.A.

Condone? (It's a matter of ones beliefs or faith.)

Post #79

Post by melikio »

To a Christian, a future without Christ Jesus is a future not worth living. Eternally so.
The distorted arrogance you promote, is not difficult to detect.

Now, you imply that you know who does or doesn't have "Christ"... that's arrogance, imho.

And it's all the more reason that anyone who wishes to know "truth", would not trust what you say; I think especially NOT, once they've examined the distorted meaning of the things you often claim.

I don't know who you really are, but any judgements I've made, are based strictly on what you have said (and the meaning I can gleen from the same).

As I listened to the debate of HR88 (Ammendment for Ban of Same-Sex Marriage) on C-SPAN today (representatives voting as I write), I did hear some nicely-condensed, reasoned arguments from BOTH sides of the fence.

Some people said a little of what you've said, and that's my point:

That you take off into the UN-reasonable stratosphere (often), when you express your views; and it seems you freak out when the more "radical" things you say are adamantly challenged. Do you enjoy the "arguing"? I think you LIKE the fight, but I really can't tell because I don't know you.

And I like the "balance" of what heard in the House today. There is more to hear than ONE side in all of this, and as people step into the discussion, there needs to be an understanding that there is no perfectly correct argument to be had. And what matters is what reasonable compromises must ultimately be put forth, to address the emotionally-charged issues related to homosexuality.

All sides had evidence to support the things they said, and I even saw a Christian minister express just why he thought pursuing such an Ammendment to the U.S. Constitution had nothing to do with religion as he understood it.

It seems to me, that the people who have been distracted from so many other things of importance (divorce, remarriage, children who aren't loved, defense of this nation, high fuel costs... etc.), have basically failed in their scapegoating of homosexual Americans.

There are the biblical considerations which will prevail, but I think the movement of the Federal Government "away" from making the call on related issues, is absolutely appropriate. I will grant that homosexuality IS an issue for religion to discuss and debate, but I cannot see where Constitutional Laws must seek to control (prohibit) homosexuals, or attempt to bolster that which only "faith", "love" and "commitment" can accomplish; that is, the family unit.

Homosexual people will always be with us, and the number of them will never be "zero". IF things are as some interpret, then gay people (ex-gay, forgiven at the end, struggled for a lifetime, saved by grace) will also be in Heaven; there will be no "sex" there (in my understanding), but it would be interesting to hear how it all fit into the giant puzzle that reality certainly is.

Ther Bible speaks about human sexuality, but (imo) not to the degree many imagine it does. I can't question or discount the "faith" of an "individual", I can only question the "imposition" of that individual's faith upon others or myself.

And that is where what 1John often proposes, jumps the line or reasonable boundaries. I discern that he would control people like myself (who never promoted homosexuality or encouraged anyone to be), just because of perceptions and prejudices that are his alone. The Bible can support virtually any kind of mindset imaginable; but those who are of Christ (imho) exude something that is unmistakable... "unconditional love"; not a controlling religious attitude which presumes to take over the lives of those who by real-conscience either cannot or do not believe in what is being offered.

I have little doubt that there are millions of people, who believe they know better than others (about sex, marriage and likely anything else); but there is a point where the principles which honor and maintain individual responsibilities and freedoms, must be recognized and tended to (despite certain biblical or religious beliefs which some may hold).

-Mel-
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-

User avatar
Cathar1950
Site Supporter
Posts: 10503
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:12 pm
Location: Michigan(616)
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #80

Post by Cathar1950 »

What does "traditional family values" and "Christians" have in common? Synonym.
Not much. At least the way you read it.
"And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, but he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life."(Mark 10:29-30, Luke 18:29-30, and Matthew 19:29).
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/fv.html
What the Bible says about Family Values
Genesis 19:8
Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes.
Genesis 19:32-36
Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
Genesis 22:2,10
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and ... offer him there for a burnt offering.... And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
This is the long list.
This is the short list.
I am not a liberal theologian. Most people seem to know that. "Non" sense is not my gig.
You’re not a theologian at all. I don’t think you have convinced any one here that you are not all about nonsense.
Soulforce.org. Go there. They are demanding just that. Harrassment and all.
There are Christians demonstrating at solders funerals, Harassments and all.
To a Christian, a future without Christ Jesus is a future not worth living. Eternally so. Click on "the Bible" at any book store. That's a joke son. I . . . am . . . literally . . . saying . . . "Read the Bible with a New Testament in it. . . Read the New Testament. . .."

It will give you knowledge of what Christians believe.
I would hope it could do a better job then you have shown. But then it is in the eyes of the beholder.
And what is the anti-Christian proclaiming? Follow secularism. No deviating.
Sane Christians also follow secularism. Only most have a better idea.
You seem to be the one fearing deviation.
Yet common sense stands in opposition to your point of view. Christians proclaim a man should be a good person and if a father love his wife and children and take care of them, The way Christ Jesus indicated when He defined marriage and divorce as breaking up a joining of a man and a woman.

And-that-that-was-bad.

We Christians call that "moral advice." From God.
Please see above. I am glad you do not speak for Christians.
Atheism and secularism and humanism versus Christ Jesus as God. Plain enough? I'll have more time Thursday to braek things down even further if necessary.
Don’t bother you already seem broken down to me.
In America AIDS was spread through promiscuity and drug use. Clear enough?
Back up and see what "cuased the spread of AIDS." Promiscuity and drug addicts sharing with others. Not exactly the Gospel kiind though.
You forgot blood transfusions and incompetence.
Mel seems like a real caring Christian unlike your rants.
You really don’t give people advice do you?
Some one needs to point those people to this site so they can read your ravings.

Post Reply