Hell revisited

[Woland]

Hello everyone!

Supposing, as is required on this subforum, that the Bible is indeed the word of God:

1. Is it reasonable to infer from scripture that there is a place of punishment after death?
a) If so, is it reasonable to infer from scripture that this is a place of everlasting punishment?
b) If so, what can we infer from scripture concerning the nature of the people condemned to this place of punishment?
c) If not, why is it that millions of Christians, including theologians past and present, believe that there is such a place based on their understanding of scripture? Where have these views come from?

I consider that this could be a very interesting thread if people participate and share their views on Hell, because Christians appear to be very divided on the questions of the existence and nature of such a place. It would be educative to explore where the different views stem from, and which of them can best be defended scripturally.

Thank you!

-Woland

[Benoni]

Your concern is somewhat similar to what C.S. Lewis would call “the problem of pain� (I'm referring to the idea, not the book, which is why I didn't underline it or cap it.) God is indeed not helpless, but he has his own reasons for what he does, those of which I think are impossible for us to ever comprehend. With that said, it is fortunate that Paul felt inclined to clarify this: the fact that every human is held accountable for the fate they choose.

No where in the Bible is there any reference to human choice or freewill towards salvation. In fact God's Word declares the total opposite. We are saved by grace not freewill.

“The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.� (Romans 1:18-20)

And this from a parable, but it may well be the moral of it.

Yes but the wrath of God in the NT is the “wrath of the lamb� have you ever seen a lamb get mad?

“For many are invited, but few are chosen.� (Matthew 22:14)

This is true. But the ones God chooses are for a purpose. That purpose for God's elect will be the ultimate salvation o all God's people he never called. Acts 15:14-17.

God wants none of his creation to perish, but if that is what they choose, he will allow it.

The word “perish in John 3:16 was added by the translator.

“But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.� (2 Peter 3:8,9)

And of course, John 3:16.

Again, like you said, He is not helpless, He is just allowing us free will. Love and worship are only true when done out of free will, and since that is what he seeks of us, he allows us to choose, so that we can show true love.

Hell is a religious man made doctrine from all the pagan nations like Babylon, Rome, Greece . The word is not even in the original language of the bible.

Although I agree with the fact that hell is not a literal lake of fire, I think it is still the most unimaginable suffering, more than we have ever experienced.

The Lake of Fire is spiritual not literal.

“The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.� (Matthew 3:10)

The word punish means to prune in the Greek. God's fire will purge the sinners sins but not the people. It was God who caused the fall but for a purpose.

Those that do not follow God and do his will are “removed from the picture,� so to speak. This does not mean they literally are burned eternally for not producing spiritual fruit, but they will suffer from their fate nonetheless. Fire does not have to be literal torture, it is a representation of the Lord's divine judgment and wrath. Punishment does not imply torment.

Man is not a eternal being so this makes no sense. Man has a beginning. So how can man be eternal.

The Greek word 'aionios'...comes from the Greek noun 'aion' which always means 'an indeterminate period of time.'" Just prior you state that "God is eternal."

Since the Greek word "always means 'an indeterminate period of time,'" will God cease to exist? The only word we have in the Scriptures that denotes "eternal" is the Greek word "αἰώνιος (aionos)." So if God is eternal, everlasting, forever and ever, without end; so is eternal punishment and eternal life.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting <αἰώνιος> punishment: but the righteous into life eternal <αἰώνιος>.

Age abiding punishment not eternal. Until God's process is complete.

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matthew 25:46)

Pro. 25: 2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter

Matthew 13
13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

13:14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;

13:15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'

13:16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;

That last one is the end of a parable, but I don't think that discounts it. Honestly, I don't see why Jesus would fabricate all these descriptions of hell, such as saying it is eternal, just for his parables. I mean, it would be misleading. The heaven in his parables is still heaven, so why can't the hell be? Food for thought.

Our souls need to be saved. But our spirits return to God who gave it.

"What is hell? I maintain that it is the suffering of being unable to love." states Father Zossima of Fyodor Dostoevsky's The Brothers Karamazov. I favor this description. I am led to believe that our souls are indeed immortal, and that in hell, it is in separation from God, never able to love, worship, or feel the joys we feel and will feel in Heaven.

[myth-one.com]

My understanding, gleaned from long years of studying Bible and commentary, is as follows:

After the Fall, God banished Adam and Eve from the Garden so they would not have access to the Tree of Life, so that humans would not be able to live forever (now that they had the knowledge of good and evil) and put an angel there, brandishin a sword to bar access to the tree .
In other words, I was taught, they died SPIRITUALLY. They were NOT immortal.

This theory of Biblical interpretation does fit the concept of the punishment for sin being annihilation rather than eternal torture.

However it does conflict with the concept of eternal punishment, because if one was annihilated, the punishment would be over.

Let’s consider the fate of nonbelievers. You correctly say that man is NOT immortal. Thus nonbelievers are mortal, being a subset of mankind.

It seems to me that:

If nonbelievers are mortal, and
the punishment for their non-belief is eternal, then
the only possible punishment is death!

Mortal: Subject to death.

Immortal: Not subject to death.

Eternal: Lasting forever.

Death: the total and permanent cessation of all vital functions of an animal or plant.

Anything that can befall a living mortal animal ends with that animals death – except death itself.

Once death occurs, it lasts forever. Anything else ends withs one's death.

So if man is mortal and the punishment is everlasting, the one, and only, possible punishment is death.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25:46)

Why death? Because the only thing everlasting which can happen to a mortal conscious being is death.

[Benoni]

What you are not mentioning is there are three types of death in the bible. There is physical death. Adam died when he was 930 years old.

There is the first death or spiritual death. Which happened when Adam sinned. Then there is the glorious second death. Which is death to death and hell and the carnal/religious mind. Praise God for the second death.

My understanding, gleaned from long years of studying Bible and commentary, is as follows:

After the Fall, God banished Adam and Eve from the Garden so they would not have access to the Tree of Life, so that humans would not be able to live forever (now that they had the knowledge of good and evil) and put an angel there, brandishin a sword to bar access to the tree .
In other words, I was taught, they died SPIRITUALLY. They were NOT immortal.

This theory of Biblical interpretation does fit the concept of the punishment for sin being annihilation rather than eternal torture.

However it does conflict with the concept of eternal punishment, because if one was annihilated, the punishment would be over.

Let’s consider the fate of nonbelievers. You correctly say that man is NOT immortal. Thus nonbelievers are mortal, being a subset of mankind.

It seems to me that:

If nonbelievers are mortal, and
the punishment for their non-belief is eternal, then
the only possible punishment is death!

Mortal: Subject to death.

Immortal: Not subject to death.

Eternal: Lasting forever.

Death: the total and permanent cessation of all vital functions of an animal or plant.

Anything that can befall a living mortal animal ends with that animals death – except death itself.

Once death occurs, it lasts forever. Anything else ends withs one's death.

So if man is mortal and the punishment is everlasting, the one, and only, possible punishment is death.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25:46)

Why death? Because the only thing everlasting which can happen to a mortal conscious being is death.