is homosexuality worse then other sins?

[zahndervan]

another highly debated topic in my life!



the way that people treat homosexuals makes it seem like homosexuality is a more horrible sin than other ones. i dont believe that its true! sin is sin and its all discusting to God! so what gives us the right to judge homosexuals when we also live in sin everyday? they should be allowed to join the church and be pastors or w/e because like them we knowingly live in sin from day to day.



ahh im ranting now...


what are all of your thoughts?

[McCulloch]

First, make your case for that unsubstantiated personal opinion, that gay is treated differently than other sins.
I wholeheartedly disagree.

Are people who are divorced refused membership in Evangelical churches like those who are gay are?

The truth of the matter is this. Gay's and unbelieving professing (liberal) "christians?", keep ramming their immoral perverted agenda down everyone's throat against their will, and pushing the issue.
Your (and others) wrong misconception is actually driven by the gay and liberal agenda.
Case in point, of the laundry list of sins (and they are all sins including gay) that you list above, are you aware of any of these having a concerted effort to:
a) Get the particular sin accepted legally and actually change laws prohibiting the opposition of the immoral "abominable" behavior.

Fornication, idolatry, adultery and being effeminate are all legal where I live.

b) Attempt to have the perversion "accepted" by Christianity, in spite of it being clearly condemned behavior, in the Bible.

I've met some pretty effeminate priests.

I am not aware of the fornication rights group.

They don't need one. Evangelicals would not try to make fornication illegal or to discriminate against fornicators.

I haven't heard of the thiefs united liberation front.

Theft was not on that list.

Most Christians wouldn't bring the subject up because of the disgust with the behavior, just like murder, or thievery, or adultery, or fornication, or whatever.

There's the rub. Why would homosexual behaviour be as disgusting as murder, thievery or adultery?

There is no problem if it is kept behind closed doors, just like defecating or urinating bathroom habits that are done but not discussed.
If unrepentant homosexuals want to continue in their sin, keep it private.
But when you try and ram it down my throat, get it accepted legally, have pride parades exhibiting perversion publicly, and attempt to foist it on Christianity as accepted behavior, and argue that the Bible doesn't condemn it as sin, I draw the line.

Why should fornication be legal but homosexuality not be? Biker and McCulloch agree on one thing. Any religious group that wishes to define any particular behaviour as a sin, eating pork, wearing the wrong clothes or having a homosexual partner, should be free to do so in the privacy of their own group.

Do your sin in private and don't tell me about it, or ask me to accept or subsidize it, because I won't or will not.

Can you refuse to hire or to lease an apartment to a fornicator or an idolater?

We missed the "adultery-and-divorce" pride parades.

How about idolatry?

[Biker]

(To Biker) From my observations, you are wrong. You personally are treating homosexuality as a different 'class' of sin. You don't rally against divorce or adultery like you do Homosexualtity.

We missed the "adultery-and-divorce" pride parades.

That is probably because people who divorce and commit adultery have not had problems with discrimination, abuse, violence, etc. in recent memories. When people have their rights abused, they sometimes decide they have to stand up for themselves.

But you generally don't see them mocking Christ and Christianity like many gays do in this photo:

http://adweek.blogs.com/adfreak/2007/09 ... -last.html

That kind of sorry exposition, and many like that, do not help the pro-gay cause.

I would agree the poster is in poor taste, deliberately provocative, and not offered in love. It also does not help the cause of gay rights, in my view.

However, we should keep in mind that it says nothing about gays in general. We shouldn't present Fred Phelps as the face of Christianity, neither should we present this poster as saying anything about gays as a group.

I wonder how many people obsessed with homosexuality have had affairs or got divorced.

Goat's trying to justify one sin by pointing to others. Not a good plan.

This is not really what Goat is doing. Goat is simply pointing out a hypocrisy as he sees it.

Yes, we can and perhaps should judge whether each of these is a sin independently, and which is 'worse' if we wish.

However, Goat's is a legitimate point. It is all the more relevant given that adultery and divorce are not forbidden by law, but gay marriage is. This is a hypocrisy promulgated by a mostly Christian population, arguably because this population is unwilling to enforce biblical prohibitions against adultery, divorce, and remarriage on itself, but is willing to discriminate against the small minority of people who are gay.

It is all the more problematical because divorce and adultery have victims. Gay sex and gay marriage does not.

Thus, the practice is not only hypocritical, it also is arguably unbiblical because we are allowing practices which are clearly 'sins against another person' and which, depending on the context, are probably violating the law of love and the golden rule, but we are prohibiting practices which are not sins against others and which do not violate the law of love or the golden rule.

In effect, we are allowing the 'worse' sins and prohibiting the lesser sin.

That is probably beause

Is Micatala actually serious with a statement like this?
That statement means: Micatala is offering us his unsupported/unsubstantiated personal opinion.
People who divorce and commit adultery for the most part are:
a) Ashamed
b) Don't want to broadcast their sin, and dwell on it
c) Are convicted of their sin
d) Their conscience bothers them (you know, that inner moral compass we all have)
e) Realize it is sin and morally objectionable
f) Know the Bible condemns the immoral behavior
g) Know the consequences of the sin are serious
h) Are not proud of the fact of their sin
i) Are not actively promoting their sin as acceptable morally
j) Are not employing sophistry and arguing their sin is not sin or is acceptable and proper behavior within Christianity

As opposed to gay rights activists who promulgate the above, and seek to promote their sin within Christianity and society in general, which is particularly pernicious. Which makes it worse.

When people have their rights abused

The debate is not about peoples rights.
The debate is about sin. Homosexuality=sin, remember? That is not up for discussion as the thread establishes whether homosexuality is a worse "sin" than others. The Bible clearly establishes homosexuality as sin. Rights do not have any place in the debate.
Are homosexuals bringing the (so-called) "abuse" upon themselves by promoting immorality, exhibiting pride in their sin, foisting their immorality upon society and Christianity, thumbing their collective gay rights nose with their abominable immoral sexual perversion in spite at a) Christianity b) Society in general?
Is it abuse or just opposition? Define abuse?
I would characterize what the gay rights community is doing with their subversive tactics and sophistry and so forth as abuse against Christian teaching and morals, and against the Lords ecclesia.

they sometimes decide they have to stand up for themselves

They are standing up for objectionable immoral sin.
And they try to force it on the rest of the overwhelming majority of society who do not agree with the abominable, immoral sin.

It says nothing about gays in general

So what! The neighbors and acquaintances said Jeffrey Dommler "was such a nice quiet, personable, mannerly boy", all the while he was taking boys back to his house and having gay sex and then hacking them up and eating them. Your point proves nothing.

Adultery and divorce are not forbidden by law

Yes they are in most places. But legal provisions and justifications have been made in courts because of the overwhelming number of people in our "modern" "enlightened" "educated" "secular" society that demand it!
Adultery and divorce in years past used to carry a definite stigma and disdain. Provision has been made (in my lifetime) to make divorce easy, quick, painless. It wasn't that way previously. Now the push is on to legitimize abominable, disgusting, immoral, sinful, homosexuality.
Its just a sign of the times as more and more people, (such as yourself) do not believe and heed the inerrant Bible.

This is a hypocricy promulgated by a mostly Christian population, arguably because this population is unwilling to enforce Biblical prohibitions against adultery, divorce and remarriage on itself, but is willing to discriminate against the small minority of people who are gay.

I, discriminate between those who do not recognize homosexual as sin and in fact promote it and then have the audacity to say "God made me gay", and continue to live in the sin of homosexuality unrepentant.
And those who sin and go to God for forgiveness and then as Jesus said "Go and sin no more".
At this point I suppose its time you back this speculative conjecture, and personal opinion, with fact, with proof?
a) "Mostly Christian population"? Facts, proof please.
b) Define Christian?
c) "Population is unwilling". Define which population? Proof?
d) "Unwilling to enforce Biblical prohibitions against adultery, divorce, and remarriage on itself"? Facts, proof?
e) "But is willing to discriminate against"? Proof, facts?

I am a Christian, I don't believe, promote, teach, follow, or promulgate anything that you assert. Neither do any of the Christians I know. Or the Christian groups or organizations or ministry that I have associated with across the North American continent. Proof please?

Divorce and adultery have victims. Gay sex and gay marriage does not.

LOL. So now the perfect humans are only gay, and only gay's are capable of having the "perfect" relationship. This is an incredible statement. I think your on your own with that statement. What is your idea of a "victim"?
What about God, in this mix? Do you think God could be hurt by gay relationship?

In effect we are allowing the 'worse' sins and prohibiting the lesser sin.

The Scripture "In the end times right will be wrong and wrong will be right" comes to mind with your reasoning.
Define "we"?
You so far have not made your case Christianity does or affirms any of your false assertions.
Make your case.

Biker

[micatala]

It is all the more problematical because divorce and adultery have victims. Gay sex and gay marriage does not.

Thus, the practice is not only hypocritical, it also is arguably unbiblical because we are allowing practices which are clearly 'sins against another person' and which, depending on the context, are probably violating the law of love and the golden rule, but we are prohibiting practices which are not sins against others and which do not violate the law of love or the golden rule.

In effect, we are allowing the 'worse' sins and prohibiting the lesser sin.

That is probably beause [added back the original context] people who commit divorce and adultery do not have a history of suffering persecution and discrimination

Is Micatala actually serious with a statement like this?
That statement means: Micatala is offering us his unsupported/unsubstantiated personal opinion.

Yes. Divorce is legal in all 50 states. I know of no one who has ever been thrown in jail for adultery. I know dozens of divorced people who attend a variety of churches and no one makes an issue of it. I know people who have remarried after divorce with no objection from the churches, never mind the law. I know adulterers who have attended and been welcomed in churches, including very conservative ones. My statement is a true statement. If you wish to refute it make your case.

People who divorce and commit adultery for the most part are:
a) Ashamed

For adultery, I would agree this is largely true. It is not my experience that most divorced people feel ashamed of their divorce. Rather they have somewhat of a tendency to blame the partner for the problem.

In fact, most of your list might apply to adultery, but most items do not apply to divorce.

b) Don't want to broadcast their sin, and dwell on it

Adultery yes. For divorce, they tend not to even think it is a sin.

c) Are convicted of their sin
d) Their conscience bothers them (you know, that inner moral compass we all have)
e) Realize it is sin and morally objectionable

Adultery yes, divorce no.

f) Know the Bible condemns the immoral behavior

Probably they do know this. Even the most ardent Christians however put other considerations ahead of what the Bible says regarding divorce. Again, the divorced Christians I know DO NOT EVEN CONSIDER WHAT THEY DID A SIN. They certainly do not typically repent of it. They stay divorced, and then even consider it OK to remarry, even if their partner was not adulterous.

g) Know the consequences of the sin are serious

Again, adultery yes. Divorce is not considered a sin even though they acknowledge it does have serious consequences.

h) Are not proud of the fact of their sin

Adultery yes, divorce no.

i) Are not actively promoting their sin as acceptable morally

Baloney. Divorce is morally acceptable to most Christians. It is viewed as unfortunate and not desirable, but Christians by and large do not feel they are acting imorally in divorcing if they feel the situation justifies it. They feel quite free to judge the sinfulness of their divorce for themselves, which is exactly what I have suggested for homosexuals.

j) Are not employing sophistry and arguing their sin is not sin or is acceptable and proper behavior within Christianity

Neither are those who argue that homosexuality should not necessarily be considered sinful. I have made my case on the Bible, no sophistry involved. Certainly my case is as strong as the case people make for divorce, which they do make.

When people have their rights abused

The debate is not about peoples rights.
The debate is about sin. Homosexuality=sin, remember?

I agree, except that homosexuality is considered so much worse of a sin by some that they have promoted legal discrimination against gays.

That is not up for discussion as the thread establishes whether homosexuality is a worse "sin" than others. The Bible clearly establishes homosexuality as sin.

In your opinion. It is just as clear, even more so, that divorce and remarriage is sinful.

I would characterize what the gay rights community is doing with their subversive tactics and sophistry and so forth as abuse against Christian teaching and morals, and against the Lords ecclesia.

In general, the charge of 'abuse' of Christians and the church is laughable.

they sometimes decide they have to stand up for themselves

They are standing up for objectionable immoral sin.
And they try to force it on the rest of the overwhelming majority of society who do not agree with the abominable, immoral sin.

Be specific. What in the world do you mean by 'force it on the rest of society?' I think you are imagining things.

It says nothing about gays in general

So what! The neighbors and acquaintances said Jeffrey Dommler "was such a nice quiet, personable, mannerly boy", all the while he was taking boys back to his house and having gay sex and then hacking them up and eating them. Your point proves nothing.

C'mon BIker. THis is totally ridiculous, insulting and inflammatory. Likening gays to Jeffrey Dahmer. How low will you sink in your crusade to defame gays?

Adultery and divorce are not forbidden by law

Yes they are in most places.

See below.

This is a hypocricy promulgated by a mostly Christian population, arguably because this population is unwilling to enforce Biblical prohibitions against adultery, divorce and remarriage on itself, but is willing to discriminate against the small minority of people who are gay.

I, discriminate between those who do not recognize homosexual as sin and in fact promote it and then have the audacity to say "God made me gay", and continue to live in the sin of homosexuality unrepentant.
And those who sin and go to God for forgiveness and then as Jesus said "Go and sin no more".
At this point I suppose its time you back this speculative conjecture, and personal opinion, with fact, with proof?
a) "Mostly Christian population"? Facts, proof please.
b) Define Christian?
c) "Population is unwilling". Define which population? Proof?
d) "Unwilling to enforce Biblical prohibitions against adultery, divorce, and remarriage on itself"? Facts, proof?
e) "But is willing to discriminate against"? Proof, facts?

The U.S. is commonly reported to be 85% Christian. Christians are those who confess to be so. Unwilling means they have not promoted laws against adultery or divorce. Divorce and adultery are not prosecuted under the law. Divorce is regulated but is not forbidden.

See here for a discussion of divorce law.

Adultery is illegal in some jurisdictions, but is not usually criminally prosecutable even when it is illegal. See wikipedia for one discussion.

In the United States, laws vary from state to state. For example, in Pennsylvania, adultery is technically punishable by 2 years of imprisonment or 18 months of treatment for insanity (for history, see Hamowy) (criminal statute repealed 1972), while in Michigan the Court of Appeals, the state's second-highest court, ruled that a little-known provision of state criminal law means that adultery carries a potential life sentence.[2] In Maryland, adultery is punishable by a fine of $10. That being said, such statutes are typically considered blue laws and are rarely, if ever, enforced. In the U.S. Military, adultery is a potential court-martial offense only if the actions of the accused were "to the prejudice of good order and discipline" or "of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces".[3] This law has been applied to cases where both partners were members of the military, particularly where one was in command of the other, or one partner and the other's spouse. The enforceability of criminal sanctions for adultery is questionable in light of Supreme Court decisions since 1965 relating to privacy and sexual intimacy, and particularly in light of Lawrence v. Texas, which protected the right of privacy for consenting adults.

In Canadian law, adultery is defined under the Divorce Act. Though the written definition sets it as extramarital relations with someone of the opposite sex, the recent change in the definition of marriage gave grounds for a British Columbia judge to strike that definition down. In a 2005 case of a woman filing for divorce, her husband had cheated on her with another man, which the judge felt was equal reasoning to dissolve the union.

A majority of nations in the European Union, such as Austria, the Netherlands or Sweden do not prosecute adultery.

Thus, adultery is in practice legal in many if not most places in the U.S.

I am a Christian, I don't believe, promote, teach, follow, or promulgate anything that you assert. Neither do any of the Christians I know. Or the Christian groups or organizations or ministry that I have associated with across the North American continent. Proof please?

You are only one Christian. Certainly there are many who agree with your point of view. However, the law is the law.

Divorce and adultery have victims. Gay sex and gay marriage does not.

LOL. So now the perfect humans are only gay, and only gay's are capable of having the "perfect" relationship. This is an incredible statement.

Perhaps it would be if I had made it. However, this is not what I said.

Don't be mistaken. I fully agree that heterosexual marriages are God ordained and part of his plan and are good, even the ideal. However, just because something is ideal does not mean all other options are evil. In arguing for a different Christian view of homosexuality, I am not saying anything against traditional marriage or heterosexual relationships in general.

I think your on your own with that statement. What is your idea of a "victim"?
What about God, in this mix? Do you think God could be hurt by gay relationship?

No, I don't think God is hurt. I think He is bigger than that. He is grieved when we hurt each other or ourselves. If people become addicted to sex or let it control their lives, whether they are heterosexual or homosexual, God might be grieved. I think he is grieved by the abuse heaped on his gay children.

[Easyrider]

I notice many people who fume against homosexuality have gotten multiple divorces. I think they should look at themselves first, and fix themselves before
they go spew on how sinful others are.

Divorce Rate in Same-Sex
Partnerships In Sweden

A new study published by the Institute For Marriage And Public Policy (IMAPP) in May, 2004, sheds light on the high incidence of legal "divorce" among gays who entered into a registered same-sex partnership in Sweden.

The IMAPP report surveys the results of a study published by Gunnar Andersson, earlier this year entitled "Divorce-Risk Patterns In Same-Sex 'Marriages' In Norway And Sweden."

The IMAPP report notes that in Sweden, between 1995 and 2002, there were 1,526 gay partnerships contracted, compared to 280,000 for heterosexual couples. Five out of 1,000 new couples in Sweden are same-sex. Sixty-two percent of those are male same-sex unions.

The survey revealed a high rate of legal divorce among homosexual couples in Sweden. Gay male couples were 50% more likely to divorce within an eight-year period than were heterosexuals; and lesbian couples were 167% more likely to divorce than heterosexual couples.

According to IMAPP: "Even among childless households, same-sex male partnerships experienced almost a 50% higher likelihood (1.49 times as likely) of divorce during the study period, while childless lesbian couples were three times as likely (200% higher likelihood) to break up as a married couple without children."

Like you say, I think they should look at themselves first, and fix themselves before they go spew on how sinful others are.

[micatala]

I notice many people who fume against homosexuality have gotten multiple divorces. I think they should look at themselves first, and fix themselves before
they go spew on how sinful others are.

Divorce Rate in Same-Sex
Partnerships In Sweden

A new study published by the Institute For Marriage And Public Policy (IMAPP) in May, 2004, sheds light on the high incidence of legal "divorce" among gays who entered into a registered same-sex partnership in Sweden.

The IMAPP report surveys the results of a study published by Gunnar Andersson, earlier this year entitled "Divorce-Risk Patterns In Same-Sex 'Marriages' In Norway And Sweden."

The IMAPP report notes that in Sweden, between 1995 and 2002, there were 1,526 gay partnerships contracted, compared to 280,000 for heterosexual couples. Five out of 1,000 new couples in Sweden are same-sex. Sixty-two percent of those are male same-sex unions.

The survey revealed a high rate of legal divorce among homosexual couples in Sweden. Gay male couples were 50% more likely to divorce within an eight-year period than were heterosexuals; and lesbian couples were 167% more likely to divorce than heterosexual couples.

According to IMAPP: "Even among childless households, same-sex male partnerships experienced almost a 50% higher likelihood (1.49 times as likely) of divorce during the study period, while childless lesbian couples were three times as likely (200% higher likelihood) to break up as a married couple without children."

Like you say, I think they should look at themselves first, and fix themselves before they go spew on how sinful others are.

THis is interesting and I agree we should be concerned about divorce among gays just as we are concerned about divorce among heterosexuals.

I am not interested in 'who is more sinful' per se. It seems to me the Biblical teaching is for each of us to deal with our own sin before God, and not to judge each other or throw stones at each other about each others sins. This is biblical. See Romans 14.

If one wants to investigate why gays have a higher divorce rate, I think that would be interesting. Certainly one obvious hypothesis has to do with children. Is there data to support the stereotypical notion that many couples stay together 'just for the kids'? If so, this would be one reason why there is less divorce.

Also one should consider how Sweden's divorce rates compare with those elsewhere, like the U.S. The above compares rates only within Sweden. Do Swedish gays have a lower divorce rate than U.S. Christians? What would this imply if it were the case?

[Biker]

First, make your case for that unsubstantiated personal opinion, that gay is treated differently than other sins.
I wholeheartedly disagree.

Are people who are divorced refused membership in Evangelical churches like those who are gay are?

The truth of the matter is this. Gay's and unbelieving professing (liberal) "christians?", keep ramming their immoral perverted agenda down everyone's throat against their will, and pushing the issue.
Your (and others) wrong misconception is actually driven by the gay and liberal agenda.
Case in point, of the laundry list of sins (and they are all sins including gay) that you list above, are you aware of any of these having a concerted effort to:
a) Get the particular sin accepted legally and actually change laws prohibiting the opposition of the immoral "abominable" behavior.

Fornication, idolatry, adultery and being effeminate are all legal where I live.

b) Attempt to have the perversion "accepted" by Christianity, in spite of it being clearly condemned behavior, in the Bible.

I've met some pretty effeminate priests.

I am not aware of the fornication rights group.

They don't need one. Evangelicals would not try to make fornication illegal or to discriminate against fornicators.

I haven't heard of the thiefs united liberation front.

Theft was not on that list.

Most Christians wouldn't bring the subject up because of the disgust with the behavior, just like murder, or thievery, or adultery, or fornication, or whatever.

There's the rub. Why would homosexual behavior be as disgusting as murder, thievery or adultery?

There is no problem if it is kept behind closed doors, just like defecating or urinating bathroom habits that are done but not discussed.
If unrepentant homosexuals want to continue in their sin, keep it private.
But when you try and ram it down my throat, get it accepted legally, have pride parades exhibiting perversion publicly, and attempt to foist it on Christianity as accepted behavior, and argue that the Bible doesn't condemn it as sin, I draw the line.

Why should fornication be legal but homosexuality not be? Biker and McCulloch agree on one thing. Any religious group that wishes to define any particular behavior as a sin, eating pork, wearing the wrong clothes or having a homosexual partner, should be free to do so in the privacy of their own group.

Do your sin in private and don't tell me about it, or ask me to accept or subsidize it, because I won't or will not.

Can you refuse to hire or to lease an apartment to a fornicator or an idolater?

We missed the "adultery-and-divorce" pride parades.

How about idolatry?

Are people who are divorced refused membership in Evangelical churchs like those who are gay are?

I am not aware of this hypothetical scenario actually being true?
If it were true it still does not change the fact the Scriptures clearly condemn homosexuality as sin.
I guess I would ask, are we talking of divorced and gay who (a) are acknowledging their sin (b) repentant of their sin (c) asked for and have received by faith their forgiveness from the sin (d) are living in the light of their forgiveness from God of their sin (e) are walking in a new direction (repentance) from their sin (f) are not actively involved in activist activities promoting the sin (g) are not actively teaching that their sin is ok (h) are not employing sophistry in saying the clear Scripture does not say what it clearly says regarding their sin, etc. etc. etc.

Fornication, idolatry, adultery and being effeminate are all legal where I live.

Are you from Sodom and Gomorrah? If I were you Id look up and be expecting fire and brimstone any second now Mac.
Seriously, what does your quote have to do with sin, and the topic?
Is homosexuality legal, where you live?

I've met some pretty effeminate preists.

I would agree. I've met some pretty effeminate pastors, reverends, preachers, also.
I am so glad that my faith or the Bible doesn't hinge on effeminate whatevers, but the inerrant word of God, which clearly describes what sin is.
Such as homosexuality.

Evangelicals would not try to make fornication illegal or to discriminate against fornicators.

Why Mac if I didn't know better I would think you are trying to provoke Evangelicals to anger! Good thing I'm not one!
Again, what your quote has to do with the subject at hand is beyond me?
I suppose you can provide proof of your speculation?
I was not aware sin was dependant on "Evangelicals"?

Theft was not on that list.

It's on this one 1 Corinthians 6:9.

There's the rub. Why would homosexual behavior be as disgusting as murder, theivery or adultery?

Rub? Are you referring to the noun or the verb? It doesn't matter anyway since were talking about sin, which the Bible is the authority and clear that God considers homosexuality to be an abomination.
Thats why!

Why should fornication be legal but homosexuality not be?

Again, isn't this about sin and not legalities of current temporary temporal political entities?
According to the inerrant word of God, both are sin!
I make the assertion that gay rights activists who try to call themselves "Christians" are "worse than other sinners".
Mac, you confuse the issues so much I'm worried about you!

Biker and McCulloch agree on one thing. Any religious group that wishes to define any particular behaviour as a sin, eating pork, wearing the wrong clothes or having a homosexual partner, should be free to do so in the privacy of their own group.

Mac, that is more than one thing. And here I thought you were a math student and math historian? Silly me!
Hmmm, where shall I begin? I know, I never said that nor do I agree.
Groups dos and don'ts bore me to tears.
I only care about the inerrant word of God.
I said, homosexuals should keep their sin private and don't tell me about it, or parade immorality around in the light of day, and don't try to ask me to agree to it or accept it as normal behavior, or try to get immorality legalized, or teach that it is ok or that God made them that way, or the inerrant Bible says anything other than homosexuality is an immoral relation and an abomination to God and sin.
That is what I have consistently said and will say!
You know that Mac.

Can you refuse to hire or to lease an apartment to a fornicator or an idolater?

Are you inferring that Evangelicals do that?
I would surmise that atheists are much more likely to be prejudiced given their treatment of Christians in general and Evangelicals in particular.
Especially in view of Christianity and Christians have been the initiators of all worthwile achievements in human relations in the past 2000 + years!
Again, what does this have to do with the thread? I thought you were a moderator?
Isn't this thread about the sin of homosexuality?

How about idolatry?

How about it?

Biker

[Biker]

I notice many people who fume against homosexuality have gotten multiple divorces. I think they should look at themselves first, and fix themselves before
they go spew on how sinful others are.

Divorce Rate in Same-Sex
Partnerships In Sweden

A new study published by the Institute For Marriage And Public Policy (IMAPP) in May, 2004, sheds light on the high incidence of legal "divorce" among gays who entered into a registered same-sex partnership in Sweden.

The IMAPP report surveys the results of a study published by Gunnar Andersson, earlier this year entitled "Divorce-Risk Patterns In Same-Sex 'Marriages' In Norway And Sweden."

The IMAPP report notes that in Sweden, between 1995 and 2002, there were 1,526 gay partnerships contracted, compared to 280,000 for heterosexual couples. Five out of 1,000 new couples in Sweden are same-sex. Sixty-two percent of those are male same-sex unions.

The survey revealed a high rate of legal divorce among homosexual couples in Sweden. Gay male couples were 50% more likely to divorce within an eight-year period than were heterosexuals; and lesbian couples were 167% more likely to divorce than heterosexual couples.

According to IMAPP: "Even among childless households, same-sex male partnerships experienced almost a 50% higher likelihood (1.49 times as likely) of divorce during the study period, while childless lesbian couples were three times as likely (200% higher likelihood) to break up as a married couple without children."

Like you say, I think they should look at themselves first, and fix themselves before they go spew on how sinful others are.

THis is interesting and I agree we should be concerned about divorce among gays just as we are concerned about divorce among heterosexuals.

I am not interested in 'who is more sinful' per se. It seems to me the Biblical teaching is for each of us to deal with our own sin before God, and not to judge each other or throw stones at each other about each others sins. This is biblical. See Romans 14.

If one wants to investigate why gays have a higher divorce rate, I think that would be interesting. Certainly one obvious hypothesis has to do with children. Is there data to support the stereotypical notion that many couples stay together 'just for the kids'? If so, this would be one reason why there is less divorce.

Also one should consider how Sweden's divorce rates compare with those elsewhere, like the U.S. The above compares rates only within Sweden. Do Swedish gays have a lower divorce rate than U.S. Christians? What would this imply if it were the case?

This is interesting and I agree we should be concerned about divorce among gays just as we are concerned about divorce among heterosexuals.

I suppose it is interesting from diametrically opposed views Micatala.
I'm confused on this point Micatala, since gay marriage is illegal, immoral, sinful, and not allowed in the US, why should we be concerned about a non issue?
Somehow, I don't think you rightly characterize, EZ's position as being "concerned" about gay divorce.
It's not so much being concerned about gay divorce as it is about gay marriage period! It is the further erosion of Biblical morals, and an affront to God and the institution of marriage itself between one man and one woman. Man on man or woman on woman is a travesty to every norm in the history of man, the inerrant Bible, and good common sense, not to mention human conscience.
In addition, one professing Christianity is compelled to: "Obey the laws of the land", is homosexuality illegal in your state Micatala?
One professing Christianity wouldn't preach subversion against the laws of the land or ones state, would one Micatala? Is that Christian?
Especially since the overwhelming majority of one peers are repulsed by the immorality of homosexuality, as they are of sex with mom, sex with sis, sex with daughter, sex with aunt, sex with granddaughter, sex with sparky the family poodle.

It seems to me the Biblical teaching is for each of us to deal with our own sin before God, and not judge each other or throw stones at each other about each others sins.

I would say a hearty AMEN Micatala. But the Bible is also about calling sin sin, and acknowledging our sin and repenting of our sin and going before a majestic God who is all loving and forgiving and merciful and kind and gracious towards us.
But we must humble ourselves before Him and accept His word as final and obey His word and do it.
Winking at sin and saying it is OK, is doing the greatest injustice towards man.
We are dealing with peoples eternities, we must get it right.
In addition we are debating a topic. So lets not confuse one as debating that the Bible clearly establishes gay as sin with judging people. It is simply debate and to characterize one literally believing the Bible as judging in a debate when the subject is "Is homosexuality a worse sin" is disingenuous and an unfair tactic.
My point is this: homosexuality is a sin. To cry one is throwing stones and judging is not really wanting to honestly debate in my humble opinion. I say many things are sin according to the Bible not just homosexuality, because I consider it the final authority.
Anyone calling themself a Christian should consider the Bible the final authority on all it talks about also. What else do you base your belief on? To throw out aspects where does one stop and who says?
What do divorce statistics have to do with the topic?
Divorce statistics establish or prove nothing on the matter of sin as what people do or don't do don't make anything right or wrong. It is what God says despite if you agree with it or not. It is not a democratic process, you don't get a vote.
Divorce=sin, gay=sin.
Repent and get it right with God or it won't go well with you.

Biker

[micatala]

This is interesting and I agree we should be concerned about divorce among gays just as we are concerned about divorce among heterosexuals.

I suppose it is interesting from diametrically opposed views Micatala.
I'm confused on this point Micatala, since gay marriage is illegal, immoral, sinful, and not allowed in the US, why should we be concerned about a non issue?

Gay marriage is illegal, except in Massachusetts, as I understand. That does not make it sinful.

I am concerned about it because the laws against gay marriage represent an unconstitutional injustice.

It's not so much being concerned about gay divorce as it is about gay marriage period! It is the further erosion of Biblical morals, and an affront to God and the institution of marriage itself between one man and one woman.

Even if there were an unambiguous biblical case against homosexuality or gay marriage, which there isn't, going further and making a religious doctrine the law of the land is not justified.

Which Biblical precepts should we enact into law? Consider the 10 commandments.

2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

13 "You shall not murder.

14 "You shall not commit adultery.

15 "You shall not steal.

16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

Of these, only the commandments against murder and stealing are commonly enacted into law. Adultery is illegal in some locations, but even where such laws exist, they are almost never enforced. False testimony is only illegal in cases of libel, slander, and in court.

So, if you think we should ban gay marriage based on the Bible, why do we not enact all of the 10 commandments or other Biblical teachings into law? If not all, which ones do we enact and which ones do we not enact?

Laws banning gay marriage are simply an unjust tyranny of the majority based on an ancient prejudice.

the inerrant Bible,

Why don't you step up to the plate and debate this assertion.

One professing Christianity wouldn't preach subversion against the laws of the land or ones state, would one Micatala? Is that Christian?

I preach against the injustice that is being perpetrated upon people who are not doing anyone any harm. I stand on the Bible in doing this. It is rather those who malign gays and legally discriminate against them that are practicing an unbiblical action. Would you say those who preached against slavery were acting inadvisedly or imorally? Would you have advised them to keep their opinions to themselves?

Anyone calling themself a Christian should consider the Bible the final authority on all it talks about also. What else do you base your belief on?

I have consistently argued my position on the basis of the Bible with respect to appropriate behavior of Christians towards homosexuals. You have yet to refute this position, in my view. You stick to the few verses with words translated as homosexuality without taking into account the larger context of these verses nor other more central teachings of Christianity.

In addition, Christianity is a faith that one ascribes to voluntarily. In a free society, people are free to follow or not follow a religion as they see fit. By enacting bans against gay marriage, the Christian majority is enforcing a religious doctrine on the entire population.

What do divorce statistics have to do with the topic?

Ask Easyrider. I was responding to his post.

[Goat]

This is interesting and I agree we should be concerned about divorce among gays just as we are concerned about divorce among heterosexuals.

I suppose it is interesting from diametrically opposed views Micatala.
I'm confused on this point Micatala, since gay marriage is illegal, immoral, sinful, and not allowed in the US, why should we be concerned about a non issue?

Gay marriage is illegal, except in Massachusetts, as I understand. That does not make it sinful.

I find it amusing that the state with the lowest divorce rate in the nation is Massachusetts.

[Easyrider]

This is interesting and I agree we should be concerned about divorce among gays just as we are concerned about divorce among heterosexuals.

I suppose it is interesting from diametrically opposed views Micatala.
I'm confused on this point Micatala, since gay marriage is illegal, immoral, sinful, and not allowed in the US, why should we be concerned about a non issue?

Gay marriage is illegal, except in Massachusetts, as I understand. That does not make it sinful.

I find it amusing that the state with the lowest divorce rate in the nation is Massachusetts.

They'd rather shack up than get married in the first place.