How do they KNOW?

[Elijah John]

There is scant evidence in the Gospels that Jesus was sinless and perfect. By contrast, Jesus perfection is explicitly claimed by the authors of the Epistles.

For debate, how could they possibly know that Jesus was perfect, and never sinned in thought, word or deed? Were they witnesses to his mind? And to his every word and deed from childhood?

Isn't the claim that Jesus was perfect and sinless simply theological speculation?

[brianbbs67]

Its not given unto us to commune with spirits, so yes get away as it can't be from God.

According to the author of the Gospel of John, Jesus disagrees. In fact, he presents spirit possession as a positive:

• John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."

Jesus promises that his followers will be possessed by a spirit.


Tcg

Two differences I see here. It is the Spirit of God. God is spirit. We have to accept God to have Him reside within. We may become possessed of the Spirit but the Spirit of YHVH does not possess us.(involuntarily)

The quotes from Waterfall involve conjuring up spirits from the dead which the Tanakh/OT speaks against. It is direct violation of God's commands.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 3 by Divine Insight]

Unless faith is reconciled with logic and reasoned debate, what place does it have on a debating site? "You gotta have faith". Conversation over.

It's like when a person is losing an argument, they start calling names. A sign of defeat and surrender.

So in regard to the answers so far on this thread, fact is, the NT writers don't know that Jesus was sinless. They couldn't possibly. What in reality is theological speculation, is now called "faith".

But I guess Jesus HAD to be perfect. If he wasn't, no matter, they make him such by decree. Instead of questioning blood-atonement human sacrifice theology, they simply claim that Jesus was perfect because that was necessary in order to make their bloody theology work.

Logic and reason are involved when we look at what the Bible says about Jesus' perfection and how it fits in with him being the perfect unblemished "Lamb" of God. It is logical that he would be eligible for the job if he was sinless. If he was not sinless then he wouldn't be eligible. It DOES take a measure of faith to accept the idea that he was sinless. We have to decide whether or not we want to trust what the Bible says about the Messiah. I decided that I would trust what it says. The whole story of man's fall and his redemption makes sense to me. I don't see any reason to reject it.

EJ, what have YOU decided to accept concerning what happens to YOU when you reach the end of your life? I ask because I'd like to see if it makes more sense than what the Bible says.

[onewithhim]

When you ask a question here, what you are really asking is whether something can be supported by the doctrine.

Actually, it's the Bible, not doctrine which is considered authoritative on this forum. And that does not mean "infallible". The Bible contains contradictions, and therein lies room for debate. Both sides can appeal to the authoritative Bible.

So to say "faith settles it" does not settle matters at all. That is a dismissive cop-out.

And the OP seeks to determine to what degree the doctrine in question is supported by the Bible.

Clearly, the epistles hold that Jesus was sinless. The Gospels? Not so much. There is room for dispute there.

As Avoice points out, Jesus was rude to his mother. The Gospels record this.
And "Why do you call me good? There is none good but God alone". It's in the Gospel.
And Jesus submitted himself to the "baptism of REPENTANCE for the FORGIVENSS OF SINS". That's in the Gospel of Luke.

John's Baptism rituals were not a "coming out" party. Nor were they a presentation. They were cleansing rituals. Outward signs of inward repentance. Perfect people do not need to repent, imperfect people do. Seems Jesus did.

Avoice's opinions of how Jesus acted are just that--his opinions, and how Jesus talked to his mother can be construed in a completely different way by someone who respects him and would rather see him in a different light than Avoice does. You can get several different views about "what have I to do with you," which may well be a common idiom back then that we don't understand today. It may not be rude, but may have been taken by Mary as simply him saying that he had other things on his mind at the moment. It might behoove us to do some research on that verse in which he allegedly is rude.

What is questionable about him saying "Why call me good?" I never once took him saying that as being rude. He simply said that he wasn't on the same level as the Father, God. He always wanted the Father to have the lime-light and the glory.

Jesus did not get baptized for repentance & the forgiveness of sins. Who said that? His getting baptized was him showing everyone that he was submitting himself to do God's will. It had nothing to do with repentance and forgiveness of sins.

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 57 by PinSeeker]

I am not convinced of anything.

But I have read Paul's discourse and think it has some good points.

Do we not have reason to doubt the story about the fig tree? Do they agree on what happent?

I would like to understand things. That is not just something I am saying. But you have to understand that I am coming from this book:

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/

I think it is a good book. But I have a problem with the description of the universe in it. Maybe there are other problems to. I would like the book to be true, so...is there anything wrong with that?

Maybe this will give you a better understanding of the book:

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-e03.htm

It is said here that man was created 5 million years ago:

http://thelightuniversal.org/page67.html

What do the bible say?

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 63 by Waterfall]

"I am not convinced of anything. But I have read Paul's discourse and think it has some good points."

• Okay, so let's talk about Paul's writings, if you want. At least for now, let's put aside the book you keep referring me to. What are some things you do and don't agree with regarding Paul and his writings?

"Do we not have reason to doubt the story about the fig tree?"

• As I have said, men/women can find reason to doubt just about anything, Waterfall.

"I would like to understand things. That is not just something I am saying."

• So you keep saying, and I applaud you for that.

"But you have to understand that I am coming from this book: http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/ I think it is a good book."

• Yes, I do understand that, Waterfall. Like I said, I would discard it altogether, but I'm only suggesting that you put it aside for now, for the purpose of this discussion. That's not to say that everything in it is bad, but... well, again, I'm suggesting that you put it aside for now. Unless...

"But I have a problem with the description of the universe in it. Maybe there are other problems too."

• Okay, so this is something concrete we can talk about. Tell me what you understand from this book regarding this and what your problems with it are. This is a discussion we can have.

"I would like the book to be true, so...is there anything wrong with that?"

• Well, yes and no. No in that you want the truth. But yes in that you're taking a sort of predisposition; in my opinion, you should approach it -- and anything else, really --impartially.

"It is said here that man was created 5 million years ago. What do the bible say?"

• The Bible does not give a specific time of God's creation of man or of anything, but merely that it happened. We are left to debate that, and while this discussion can be quite interesting, really is beside the point (which is that God did it, and everything is here because of Him) and not of any kind of real importance.

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 64 by PinSeeker]

Thank you, PinSeeker, for your approach.

Okay, so let's talk about Paul's writings, if you want. At least for now, let's put aside the book you keep referring me to. What are some things you do and don't agree with regarding Paul and his writings?

I have never thought that Jesus died for my sins. To me it is a very strange thought. But Paul thinks he did. I disagree with him. Something I do agree with him about can be found here (question 70):

http://thelightuniversal.org/page66.html

As I have said, men/women can find reason to doubt just about anything, Waterfall.

I do not understand why they do not agree on the story about the fig tree? Can you explain it to me?

Okay, so this is something concrete we can talk about. Tell me what you understand from this book regarding this and what your problems with it are. This is a discussion we can have.

You would have to read this:

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a03.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-ko03.htm

Is it possible to create a universe this way? Does our universe look like that? I have my doubt. But I am not the right one to answer those questions.

There are some questions and answers here (27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32):

http://thelightuniversal.org/page58.html

And here (51):

http://thelightuniversal.org/page71.html

This nice man:

http://www.vandrermotlyset.net/

Has made this animation:

http://vandrermotlyset.net/Om%20univers ... l%204.html

Well, yes and no. No in that you want the truth. But yes in that you're taking a sort of predisposition; in my opinion, you should approach it -- and anything else, really --impartially.

Maybe you are right...

The Bible does not give a specific time of God's creation of man or of anything, but merely that it happened. We are left to debate that, and while this discussion can be quite interesting, really is beside the point (which is that God did it, and everything is here because of Him) and not of any kind of real importance.

Does the Bible not talk about 6000 years? Adam lived for 130 years and then had Seth and Seth lived for 105 years and then had Enosh and so on....is that not how they come up with 6000 years?

[PinSeeker]

I have never thought that Jesus died for my sins. To me it is a very strange thought. But Paul thinks he did. I disagree with him.

Understood. So let me ask you this. Do you think it's necessary that someone pay for your sins? If so, what would the remuneration be? If not, why?

Something I do agree with him about can be found here (question 70): http://thelightuniversal.org/page66.html

There's much there that Paul would have disagreed with completely. In fact, most everything; question 70 is pretty much in its entirety antithetical to not just what Paul writes in the Bible, but the Bible as a whole. I will say again, disregard this source, at least for now.

All Paul is actually saying in the quote cited at the end of question 70... "all," as of what he is saying is of not much significance (chuckle)... is that the distinguishing mark of all that he says and does in preaching and teaching must be love. It's good that you agree with that, but most anybody would.

I do not understand why they do not agree on the story about the fig tree? Can you explain it to me?

Well, sure. I did that, I think, but will do so again here. It's really fairly simple. The Old Testament prophets sometimes used barren fig trees to show divine judgment on Israel (Hosea 2:12), and Jesus’ curse should be viewed in that context. His curse of the fruitless fig tree was a sign that judgment was about to come on Jerusalem. Jesus cursed the fig tree for its fruitlessness, for not living up to what it appeared to be when it had foliage but no figs. That is a warning to all who profess faith in Him. We are to bear fruit for God’s glory, and if we are not bearing fruit in service to God and neighbor, we must repent and rely on His grace. If we do not, that may be a sign that we are not in His kingdom after all.

Okay, so this is something concrete we can talk about. Tell me what you understand from this book regarding this and what your problems with it are. This is a discussion we can have.

You would have to read this...

Waterfall, I asked you for some of your understandings. I have asked that you disregard any of these sources you are referring to and speak to me about your understandings. At least for now, I am not discussing any of the information contained on the web sites you are providing.

Is it possible to create a universe this way? Does our universe look like that? I have my doubt. But I am not the right one to answer those questions.

You can't answer to whether there are four "mighty" suns or not? I mean, I can. When I look into the sky, I see only one...

God spoke the universe into existence, for sure. And He could have done it a number of ways, and He could have made it to be in ways other than what we see. But He didn't. There are not four suns; surely you would agree with that.

Does the Bible not talk about 6000 years?

Not specifically, no. It is plausible that God created the universe in the range of 6,000 to 10,000 years ago. It is also plausible that God's act of creation occurred longer ago than that, even much longer. But the "when" is not really relevant. All that matters... again, "all that matters," as if it's of little significance (chuckle)... is that He did it, that everything in it is His, and that He is completely sovereign over it. That's what Genesis 1 and 2 are meant to convey, and it achieves its purpose well.

Adam lived for 130 years and then had Seth and Seth lived for 105 years and then had Enosh and so on....is that not how they come up with 6000 years?

Some do, yes. The mere fact that this is how they come up with it does not make it true. It may in fact be true, but we don't really know. It is interesting to discuss, but not knowable, really. All anybody can ultimately say is, "That's interesting to think about."

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 66 by PinSeeker]

Understood. So let me ask you this. Do you think it's necessary that someone pay for your sins? If so, what would the remuneration be? If not, why?

If I do something wrong then I have to repent and ask for forgiveness. I am capable of duing that. It is not my fault that I am not God. That I am living in this world and is a human being. The only thing God can say to me is...do your best. Have I done my best? Well..."no"...but I am trying (now) to live a better life. What else can I do?

Well, sure. I did that, I think, but will do so again here. It's really fairly simple. The Old Testament prophets sometimes used barren fig trees to show divine judgment on Israel (Hosea 2:12), and Jesus’ curse should be viewed in that context. His curse of the fruitless fig tree was a sign that judgment was about to come on Jerusalem. Jesus cursed the fig tree for its fruitlessness, for not living up to what it appeared to be when it had foliage but no figs. That is a warning to all who profess faith in Him. We are to bear fruit for God’s glory, and if we are not bearing fruit in service to God and neighbor, we must repent and rely on His grace. If we do not, that may be a sign that we are not in His kingdom after all.

But why do they not agree on what happent?

You can't answer to whether there are four "mighty" suns or not? I mean, I can. When I look into the sky, I see only one...

I can't answer that question. We are not talking about 4 mother suns around the earth. It is said that only one of them can be seen from earth. As I have said...I have my doubt. Is it possible to create a universe this way? Does our universe look like that? How should I approach this description? I am not an astronomer/astrophysicist, so what can I do other than ask these question and point to all the relevant information?

Some do, yes. The mere fact that this is how they come up with it does not make it true. It may in fact be true, but we don't really know. It is interesting to discuss, but not knowable, really. All anybody can ultimately say is, "That's interesting to think about."

I am not sure what you are saying? Did Adam not have Seth when he was 130 years old?

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 66 by PinSeeker]

Understood. So let me ask you this. Do you think it's necessary that someone pay for your sins? If so, what would the remuneration be? If not, why?

If I do something wrong then I have to repent and ask for forgiveness. I am capable of duing that. It is not my fault that I am not God. That I am living in this world and is a human being. The only thing God can say to me is...do your best. Have I done my best? Well..."no"...but I am trying (now) to live a better life. What else can I do?

You didn't answer my question.

Well, sure. I did that, I think, but will do so again here. It's really fairly simple. The Old Testament prophets sometimes used barren fig trees to show divine judgment on Israel (Hosea 2:12), and Jesus’ curse should be viewed in that context. His curse of the fruitless fig tree was a sign that judgment was about to come on Jerusalem. Jesus cursed the fig tree for its fruitlessness, for not living up to what it appeared to be when it had foliage but no figs. That is a warning to all who profess faith in Him. We are to bear fruit for God’s glory, and if we are not bearing fruit in service to God and neighbor, we must repent and rely on His grace. If we do not, that may be a sign that we are not in His kingdom after all.

But why do they not agree on what happent?

Why does who not agree, Waterfall?

You can't answer to whether there are four "mighty" suns or not? I mean, I can. When I look into the sky, I see only one...

I can't answer that question. We are not talking about 4 mother suns around the earth. It is said that only one of them can be seen from earth.

Well, scientific advances have made the visible universe is almost 45 billion light years in radius, Waterfall. We can be pretty confident that we don't have four suns.

Is it possible to create a universe this way?

I guess anything would have been possible for God in His act of Creation, but, well, we see what we see.

Does our universe look like that?

Like how this website you keep referring me to says it looks? No.

I am not an astronomer/astrophysicist, so what can I do other than ask these question and point to all the relevant information?

You don't have to be an astronomer or an astrophysicist; we have people who have dedicated their lives to that. Any astronomer or astrophysicist would be happy to verify to you that we do not have four suns.

Some do, yes. The mere fact that this is how they come up with it does not make it true. It may in fact be true, but we don't really know. It is interesting to discuss, but not knowable, really. All anybody can ultimately say is, "That's interesting to think about."

I am not sure what you are saying? Did Adam not have Seth when he was 130 years old?

Sure. The Bible (God) says it (through Moses), so it's true. I'm saying, Waterfall, that if you want to believe that the universe was created 6,000 years ago, I have no problem with that, as long as you believe that God did it. I also don't have any real problem with it if you want to believe God created the universe millions or billions of years ago, as long as you believe God did it. God created the universe and all we see, and He created it all "good," even "very good." That's the main point of Genesis 1 and 2.

Having said that, especially in view of what happened next and has been the state of all mankind ever since then, I redirect you to the question I posed to you that you did not answer. It is good that you admit you are sinful and that you are in need of forgiveness. The question, again, is, "Do you think it's necessary that someone pay for your sins? If so, what would the remuneration be -- the wages of sin, if you will?"

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 68 by PinSeeker]

I think we are having a good conversation about things PinSeeker. At the moment I have desided to drink some beers and relax. Maybe I will respond tomorrow.

Best regard or namaste