If you don't trust the Bible, Where do you look for truth?

[2timothy316]

What say you?
Also, if you don't see an option in the vote then add it in a comment.

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 60 by 2timothy316]

I mean 1 Cor 13:8 says, "But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with." You don't believe this, nor do you believe Eph 2:20, “while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone.�

Those verses were already explained. Your understanding of them is faulty.

****

Unless the Bible clearly indicates such a state of affairs, we are to assume that the biblical model of Christianity and the Church is normative for all times.


13:8 Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.


Paul is talking about the consummation of all things and the end of the age


13:9-10 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; [10] but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.

Again, the “perfect� is the next life, being with God, enjoying His presence in heaven for eternity.

if these gifts were to cease, why would Paul spend the better part of three chapters (1 Cor 12-14) defining and elaborating upon them for use in the Church? Right in 14:1, he urges the Corinthians to “. . . strive for the spiritual gifts . . . � So how are we to accept this notion that Paul is speaking only to the first generation of Christians and to no others? Where does that premise lead us?

In fact, it destroys the authority of Holy Scripture because now we ourselves (in the final analysis) arbitrarily pick and choose what is “for us today� and what ceased in the early days of the Church. One simply can’t consistently interpret the Bible in such a fashion. Some dispensationalists — true to their own false premises — even go so far as to say that the Sermon on the Mount is not normative for Christians today, but rather, was intended for the Jews alone.

13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.

I have always thought it obvious that this refers to the next life. This is the context of the “perfect� appearing. It’s not the Bible; it’s heaven! If the Bible alone was sufficient to make everything so clear, then why do the Protestants who appeal to it as the final authority . . . find themselves unable to reach common accord on a variety of issues? Their own history amply disproves the current thesis.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmst ... gifts-ceas...


As for Jesus being the cornerstone – of course. But Jesus is not the only one/thing referred to as foundation in Scripture. Why do you cherry pick? Your Scripture as well as mine describes the church as ‘the pillar and foundation of truth’. A reading of Scripture as a whole is always a necessary and good thing.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 60 by 2timothy316]

I mean 1 Cor 13:8 says, "But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with." You don't believe this, nor do you believe Eph 2:20, “while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone.�

Those verses were already explained. Your understanding of them is faulty.

That's the thing, I'm just reading them as they are and adding nothing to it. There's nothing for me to explain and nothing you need to explain about them. I accept them as they are written.

There is no one raising the dead, healing the deaf and blind with just a touch anymore. I have yet to hear anyone foretell the future like the Bible has. Those days are gone and that is the part you can't change no matter how you try to change the scriptures meaning.

Tonight I will be passing by a Catholic run hospital full of very sick people. My own half-sister died in it. So tell me again that the gifts of the 1st century are still in effect. I mean if those gifts were, then Catholics wouldn't even have hospitals or doctors. I have never seen a single person preach of God's kingdom in another language but never studied it before. You call my understanding faulty but the evidence in front of me is so clear there is no other way to understand it. Either you interpretation is wrong or what I see every day is wrong. The only things I see that remain are, " faith, hope, love" like the Bible said would remain. (1 Cor 13:13)

[RightReason]

[Replying to 2timothy316]

That's the thing, I'm just reading them as they are and adding nothing to it.

But that is a lame excuse. That would be like saying God wants us all to cut our arms and legs off because of Matthew 5:30

30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to depart into hell.

Sure, one could argue, nope – that’s what it says. I’m not adding anything to it, but such a reading would clearly be missing the point of the text. Again, I already pointed out proper reading of the text you cited. Paul is talking about the consummation of all things and the end of the age. You are misreading the text.

There's nothing for me to explain and nothing you need to explain about them. I accept them as they are written.

No. You are adding your own personal interpretation which doesn’t make sense given everything else Scripture tells us. Again Scripture does not say prophecy and tongues will pass away as soon as Paul or Mark die – you’ve added that. Jesus did not put a time table on His Church. He said He would remain with His Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. So, unless you are calling Jesus a liar and believe the gates of hell have prevailed against His Church, all He has said is still in effect.

There is no one raising the dead, healing the deaf and blind with just a touch anymore.

Yes! There is. People don’t always believe it and those instances aren’t as important as someone repenting or coming back to the faith or accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior, but yes they do still occur and have throughout the ages. How sad to not believe such things are possible.

Tonight I will be passing by a Catholic run hospital full of very sick people. My own half-sister died in it. So tell me again that the gifts of the 1st century are still in effect.

I will because they are. Do you think even in Jesus’ time He healed everyone? And don’t you think even when He did and even some who literally witnessed Him doing so, they still did not believe. Even when they saw it with their own eyes, some of them went on to say, it was probably a trick, or there was some other explanation, or whatever other excuse they wanted to make.

I mean if those gifts were, then Catholics wouldn't even have hospitals or doctors. I have never seen a single person preach of God's kingdom in another language but never studied it before. You call my understanding faulty but the evidence in front of me is so clear there is no other way to understand it. Either you interpretation is wrong or what I see every day is wrong. The only things I see that remain are, " faith, hope, love" like the Bible said would remain. (1 Cor 13:13)

Poor timothy, you seem to not be open to all the supernatural intervention God blesses us with. I could spend hours talking about example after example. Again, it saddens me that you are unaware of such things . . .

Raised from the Dead: True Stories of 400 Resurrection Miracles(Albert J. Hebert, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books, 1986). The book recounts resurrection stories from the patristic period, as attested by St. Justin Martyr, St. Irenaeus, St. Gregory of Nazianzus, the historian Sozomen, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Hilary of Poitiers, and St. Ambrose.

Others who were used by God to perform this extraordinary miracle are St. Patrick, St. Anthony of Padua (1195-1231), Blessed Margaret of Castello (1287-1320), St. Elizabeth of Hungary, St. Catherine of Sweden, St. Joan of Arc, St. Bernardine, St. Dominic, St. Ignatius Loyola, St. Francis Xavier, St. Philip Neri, St. John Bosco(1880), St. Martin de Porres, St. Vincent Ferrer, and Padre Pio (1960)

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/darmstro ... g-the-dead

And like I already posted there are some examples of people being brought back to life as recent as a few years ago https://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2014/ ... aby-james/

And the gift of expelling demons is another thing live and well in the Church


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/wor ... 367735002/

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to 2timothy316]


And the gift of expelling demons is another thing live and well in the Church


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/wor ... 367735002/

Demon, deamon, damien. Any believer in God can do this and more(if they believe). It is not us that does it. It is God. Luke 11 in the middle should be heeded. Rebuke the devil and he will flee from you.

People make a big mistake thinking evil(contrary to God) can not touch them or doesn't exist anymore. Even Christ was faced with The Adversary. Now we have ha'Satan with 2000 years more experience.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 63 by RightReason]

You forgot St. Cuthbert. Whose body was uncorrupted and people received healing just by being in the room.

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 65 by brianbbs67]

You forgot St. Cuthbert. Whose body was uncorrupted and people received healing just by being in the room.

You’re right -- there are thousands of examples I could have provided!

And Timothy even mentioned speaking in tongues has been done away with, but I couldn’t even tell you how many good friends of mine have witnessed or even experienced that themselves.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316]

That's the thing, I'm just reading them as they are and adding nothing to it.

But that is a lame excuse.

It's not an excuse. it's just a fact. I'm not adding anything to that scripture and yet you're saying that my interpretation is wrong when I have given no interpretation.

That would be like saying God wants us all to cut our arms and legs off because of Matthew 5:30

Yet the Bible explains that Jesus would speak in illustrations (Matt 13:34.). However, there is no indication that 1 Cor 13:8 is an illustration.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 63 by RightReason]

You forgot St. Cuthbert. Whose body was uncorrupted and people received healing just by being in the room.

There is no evidence this happened. These so-called 'healers' have been around for centuries. In fact these frauds are still practicing their craft. Ever hear of a guy named Binnie Hinn?

Over and over these 'healers' are exposed as frauds. You will need more evidence than a guy that slaps people with his jacket and unfounded stories from a religion that also thought burning people at the stake was a way to save people from hell.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316]



Poor timothy, you seem to not be open to all the supernatural intervention God blesses us with. I could spend hours talking about example after example. Again, it saddens me that you are unaware of such things . . .

Better get to work then so far these 'examples' you have provided are not convincing enough to over-turn 1 Cor 13:8.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 65 by brianbbs67]

You forgot St. Cuthbert. Whose body was uncorrupted and people received healing just by being in the room.

You’re right -- there are thousands of examples I could have provided!

And Timothy even mentioned speaking in tongues has been done away with, but I couldn’t even tell you how many good friends of mine have witnessed or even experienced that themselves.

Ah yes I have witnessed people that 'speak in tongues' too. Complete gibberish is what I saw and there was no one there that could understand what the other was saying. Big difference from Pentecost 33 CE where people could understand what was being said in their own language. There was no mention that it couldn't be understood, which is people try to pawn off as speaking in tongues today. (Acts Chapter 2)

Speaking in tongues shown to be a fraud.


Try again to debunk 1 Cor 13:8 because your modern day comparisons do not match to what the Bible says about speaking in a different language.