JW organization.

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to:

-vote
-celebrate birthdays
-celebrate Christmas or Easter
-donate or receive blood transfusions.

And if any JW openly persists in doing these things[edit to add publicly], they will be shunned or disfellowshipped, [edit to add or otherwise admonished or disciplined.]

For debate,

1) what do any of these check-list prohibitions have to do with Christianity?

2) And are any of these prohibitions compatible with the idea of Christian freedom?

3) Are these prohibitions arbitrary or legalistic?

4) And could Jehvoah's Witness as an organization flourish without these particular prohibitions and still honor God?

Please address any or all of the above.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 514 by onewithhim]

My take on that is that even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Christendom hasn't managed to distort every single teaching in the bible so there will obviously be some things that are right and that Jehovah's Witnesses share in common with them. That doesn't mean that we (JWs) inherited such truths from Christendom, only that apostate Christendom hasn't (yet) managed to rid itself of absolutely all of Christ's original teachings; even dirty water has water in it.

JW





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CHRISTIANITY, CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS and ...JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 514 by onewithhim]

My take on that is that even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Christendom hasn't managed to distort every single teaching in the bible so there will obviously be some things that are right and that Jehovah's Witnesses share in common with them. That doesn't mean that we (JWs) inherited such truths from Christendom, only that apostate Christendom hasn't (yet) managed to rid itself of absolutely all of Christ's original teachings; even dirty water has water in it.

JW

Broken religions must be also. No one knows the true path to God. At best, we have a gate keeper to help us. Many will cry Lord, Lord, we have healed and casted out demons in your name. The response, "I know you not".

[marco]

Christendom hasn't managed to distort every single teaching in the bible so there will obviously be some things that are right and that Jehovah's Witnesses share in common with them. That doesn't mean that we (JWs) inherited such truths from Christendom, only that apostate Christendom hasn't (yet) managed to rid itself of absolutely all of Christ's original teachings; even dirty water has water in it.

O, dear; it is possibly wise to reflect on Luke 18: 11 here:

"The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican."


or perhaps Luke 14:8


"When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him"

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 514 by onewithhim]

My take on that is that even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Christendom hasn't managed to distort every single teaching in the bible so there will obviously be some things that are right and that Jehovah's Witnesses share in common with them. That doesn't mean that we (JWs) inherited such truths from Christendom, only that apostate Christendom hasn't (yet) managed to rid itself of absolutely all of Christ's original teachings; even dirty water has water in it.

JW

Broken religions must be also. ... Many will cry Lord, Lord, we have healed and casted out demons in your name. The response, "I know you not".

Exactly, even a broken religion, is a religion. Most churches of Christendom at the very least acknowledge Jesus as theiir Lord (Lord). Since Jesus is Lord and King then they get at least one thing right. That's not to say we (JWs) "inherited" acknowledging Jesus as Lord from them, that is what the first century congregation knew from the Apostles, who were taught by Christ.


JEHOVAHS WITNESS

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 515 by onewithhim]

When Jesus talked about not worrying where the next meal would come from, he was instructing the early brothers in how they must start up the preaching work---giving it a good solid jump-start.

No, he was pointing out that proclaiming the kingdom has nothing to do with reliance upon oneself. There is no one more qualified to determine who can be one of his disciples than Christ himself, and he points out the prerequisites quite clearly.

whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he CANNOT be my disciple."

Here's a good question for you to answer: What does it mean to forsake santifying God's name? What does it mean to forsake preaching the gospel? Does it mean you can still sanctify God's name and preach the gospel? If so, How? If not, then why pretend that Jesus is using the term "forsake" any differently?

"for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth...
Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.23 The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment...O ye of little faith? 29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth....And they all with one consent began to make excuse...whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he CANNOT be my disciple." - Luke 12:15,22;28-33;14:18,33

It is not necessary for all of his disciples to drop what they're doing and take off in the ministry, leaving everything behind, in this day and age. Drastic measures were warranted in the early first century because the organization was new and just getting started. As time went on, people didn't have to leave their jobs and their families.

Sorry, but Jesus is quite clear in pointing out that one cannot serve God and Mammon. He never made any of the claims you're making now. Everything you're claiming is pure conjecture, and nowhere to be found in scripture. If so, where?

I don't get out of Acts 15:21 the same as what you get out of it. I don't see that Jesus' disciples continued to follow the Law. Paul said that the Law was made obsolete when Jesus died on the stake/cross.

Then pershaps you might want to explain how or why Paul states that the law is "established" in Romans 3:31. The fact is that Paul is quite clear in pointing out that God's commandments aren't done away at all. What is done away with was "the law that was against us", which should never be conflated with the law that was "FOR" us and our benefit. Colossians 2:14. Look at the reasons for the new covenant.

because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

Note also that the covenant is established with Israel. Nowhere in scripture does it state that Jehovah is establishing a new covenent with gentiles. In fact what it says is that it is the gentiles that must be grafted into the covenent with Israel, and become obedient BY FAITH to God's law.

So the only thing that has changed is the fact that instead of writing the law on tablets of stone, they are now written on their hearts. Why? Because when God writes them on their hearts, they are able to keep his law. This is how one knows that they truly have God's law written on their heart, and it is quite evident that those who are justifying their own disobedience to God's laws are lawless. They are carnal and cannot be subjected to God's law. Romans 8:7. This would be those who aren't bound to the law, and this is what the JW's proclaim in their brochures which I will quote for your edification.

"The ten words are not legally binding on Christians" quoted from w89 11/15

You provide one verse;Romans 10:4, and yet the context is quite clear that the subject is dealing with those who seek to proclaim their own righteousness. Paul isn't doing away with the law at all. Here's what he says in context. He begins with the reason itself:

Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Then he quotes Moses himself. Why or what sense does it make to quote from the law when it has been done away with? It makes no sense whatsoever to support one's position from the book that is no longer relevant.

5Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.�a 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ �b (that is, to bring Christ down) 7“or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’ �c (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,�d that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim:

JW's(half a dozen!) have been visiting me for over three months now, and they've NEVER preached this. What does that tell you?

Here's what they've been preaching to me:

All who exercise faith in Jesus BY OBEYING him...etc. (p.9; from Good News From God)

This to put the cart before the horse, and it antithetical to the gospel message.

For it is BY GRACE you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9NOT BY works, so that no one can boast.

The fact is that this is precisely what they've been doing the whole time they've been visiting me. They've been boasting exclusively in their works, most notably in their work of sanctifying Jehovah's name, and fullfiling his command to proclaim the gospel. The problem is that they're not proclaiming the gospel at all, nor are they sanctifying his name.

How do we know this? We know this because Paul is quite clear that obedience to the law didn't create faith. Note what Paul says in Romans 2

You who boast in the law(e.g. sanctifying Jehovah's name), do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.�

This is the case to this very day! Now note what Paul says concerning circumcission, which you and all of mainstream Christianity believes is of no value whatsoever.

25Circumcision HAS VALUE if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law WILL CONDEMN YOU who, even though you have the written code (e.g. sanctify God's name, do not murder, do not consume blood, etc.) and circumcision, are a LAWBREAKER.

No one is justified by the works of the law. It makes no difference what the law is that one is presenting to justify themselves or establish their righteousness. This is why the issue of circumcission arose in the first place

Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.� Acts 15:1

Did this do away with circumcission in Paul's mind? Hardly. We know this isn't the case because Paul takes Timothy to get him circumcized in the next chapter.

Paul came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was Jewish and a believer but whose father was a Greek. 2The believers at Lystra and Iconium spoke well of him. 3Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek. Acts 16:1-3

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 514 by onewithhim]

My take on that is that even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Christendom hasn't managed to distort every single teaching in the bible so there will obviously be some things that are right and that Jehovah's Witnesses share in common with them. That doesn't mean that we (JWs) inherited such truths from Christendom, only that apostate Christendom hasn't (yet) managed to rid itself of absolutely all of Christ's original teachings; even dirty water has water in it.

JW

Broken religions must be also. No one knows the true path to God. At best, we have a gate keeper to help us. Many will cry Lord, Lord, we have healed and casted out demons in your name. The response, "I know you not".

Yes, but God has failed terribly if He hasn't told us in the Bible just who He is and what we must do to be His friend. Surely He has done that!

The Bible tells us what the true path to God is. Why else would He have had it written?

Does someone desire to learn about the true path? I have found this web-site immensely informative: www.jw.org

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 517 by brianbbs67]

In addition, these articles that I give links to here address your comments, and I would like to see your response to what they say in the light of "does God ever tell us which path is the one He approves?"

Finding True Enlightenment

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... _index]=68

Walking on the Right Path

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... index]=201

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 517 by brianbbs67]

In addition, these articles that I give links to here address your comments, and I would like to see your response to what they say in the light of "does God ever tell us which path is the one He approves?"

Finding True Enlightenment

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... _index]=68

Walking on the Right Path

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... index]=201

I skimmed thru the first. Yes, God will let you know you are on the right path, in many ways. Direct communication, blessing and messengers to name a few.

You say, God shows us in the scripture that He reveals how we are to live. I agree. But, nearly every modern church ignores commanment # 4. Then there is the whole Holy day(holiday) thing and dietary too. You can't pick and choose how to serve God, when Christ gave us the example. The dietary can be argued with the latitude given to Peter to Bind and Loose(see Acts). The Sabbath and God's 7 feasts are set in stone. They all followed these and the early church was Sabbath keeping. The law was not nailed to the tree with Christ. He came to complete it, not usurp it. As right as JW's are about somethings, they adopt the tradtions of Rome in many more. Even the title, Jehovah, was invented by a RCC monk in the 1200s. RCC admits Yaweh is probably more correct.(but they don't know either.)

https://www.catholic.com/qa/is-gods-nam ... or-jehovah

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 517 by brianbbs67]

In addition, these articles that I give links to here address your comments, and I would like to see your response to what they say in the light of "does God ever tell us which path is the one He approves?"

Finding True Enlightenment

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... _index]=68

Walking on the Right Path

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... index]=201

I skimmed thru the first. Yes, God will let you know you are on the right path, in many ways. Direct communication, blessing and messengers to name a few.

You say, God shows us in the scripture that He reveals how we are to live. I agree. But, nearly every modern church ignores commanment # 4. Then there is the whole Holy day(holiday) thing and dietary too. You can't pick and choose how to serve God, when Christ gave us the example. The dietary can be argued with the latitude given to Peter to Bind and Loose(see Acts). The Sabbath and God's 7 feasts are set in stone. They all followed these and the early church was Sabbath keeping. The law was not nailed to the tree with Christ. He came to complete it, not usurp it. As right as JW's are about somethings, they adopt the tradtions of Rome in many more. Even the title, Jehovah, was invented by a RCC monk in the 1200s. RCC admits Yaweh is probably more correct.(but they don't know either.)

https://www.catholic.com/qa/is-gods-nam ... or-jehovah

The fact that nearly every modern church ignores Commandment #4, and many others as well, does not bode well for these churches. Doesn't it seem to you that perhaps these churches are the ones that Jesus had in mind when he said that he would say to them, "I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness"? (Matt.7:22,23)

You say that "the Law was not nailed to the tree with Christ." Do you dispute what the apostle Paul wrote? (Colossians 2:14) Having FULFILLED the Law, Jesus became the one who took all the sins of the people onto himself. He took the place of the sacrificial animals that the Law required. (Hebrews 9:11-14) There is a difference between "fulfilling" the Law and "usurping" it. Jesus did the former---he fulfilled it.

No one can say for sure exactly how God's name was pronounced before the superstitious Jews eliminated it from their speech. However, we know that His name is indeed the Tetragrammaton, which is YHWH. If we were to say these Hebrew letters--Yod-Heh-Waw-Heh--that would be OK. God wants us to use His name, however we want to pronounce the Tetragrammaton.

God said to Moses: "Tell them, 'Jehovah, the God of your ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is my eternal name, to be used throughout all generations." (Exodus 3:15, Catholic Living Bible)

There are dozens if not hundreds of ways to pronounce God's name, depending on what language one speaks. He doesn't mind, as long as you are attempting to pronounce "YHWH."

[shnarkle]

The dietary can be argued with the latitude given to Peter to Bind and Loose(see Acts).

What are you referring to in Acts? Peter's vision? I don't recall anything about binding and loosening in the book of Acts. I recall something similar in Matthew's gospel, but even there they aren't being given Celestial approval to bind and loosen. Instead they are being informed that what is bound or loosened in heaven will be bound or loosened on earth. In any case, there is nothing about loosening the dietary laws.

The Sabbath and God's 7 feasts are set in stone. They all followed these and the early church was Sabbath keeping. The law was not nailed to the tree with Christ. He came to complete it, not usurp it.

I agree, but you gave nothing to support these claims. In Paul's letter to the Collosians, he points out that those handwritten ordinances that "were against us" were nailed to the cross. Of course this can't be refering to God's commandments as they were "FOR" our benefit as in "The Sabbath was made FOR man, not man for the Sabbath", or as Paul points out that those who walk in God's commandments will live.

As right as JW's are about somethings, they adopt the tradtions of Rome in many more.

Good luck getting anyone to defend their position with anything from scripture. If they do provide anything they will immediately decline to continue once they've been refuted. This is the only proper thing to do, but it doesn't negate the fact that even though they, i.e. all mainstream Christian denominations; can't provide a defense for their faith, they will continue to openly violate God's commandments.