The 144,000 in JW theology

[Wootah]

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?

[2ndpillar2]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #495]
I would recommend you do some more research.....the links that JehovahsWitness provides are excellent. For the truth of the matter, the website www.jw.org is limitless in value.

On the other hand, actually reading the prophets and the message of Yeshua would seem to be the better course. A dabble into history and current events wouldn't be problematic either. While the JWs put out nice graphics, their 1914 conclusions seem to be out of sync.

Not at all. Why don't you give JWs a chance to show you how we arrived at 1914 as the time when the "gentile times" ended and the representative of Jehovah would take up his assignment as King?

BTW, the website refers people to the prophets and the message of Yeshua.

How about you just explain your position which does not align with the message of Yeshua or the prophets. The power of the nations/Gentiles remains today. The supposed power of the JWs seems to be diminishing in terms of retention, which is at 37%. Those with internal knowledge of the religion seem to be leaving it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%2 ... %20million.
There are also problems with doctrines, in that Abraham didn't come back in 1925 and set up the kingdom. According to the prophets, one false prophecy and one is done.

You don't know that our 1914 graphics are out of sync. If you gave a chance to really finding out from us how we arrive at 1914 you wouldn't be so sure of yourself. Our position can be easily explained, though extensively. Why don't YOU explain why you don't think our position does not align with Yeshua's message, or the prophets?

The power of the Gentiles has been altered because 1914 was when God's non-interference with what the nations were doing was over. From then on He has been very much involved with what has been going on here, as far as the nations are concerned, as well as Jesus' getting his disciples ready to face Armageddon, and after the preaching work is done. Before 1914 the nations were doing what they wanted without Jehovah being involved at all. Now they are doing their thing but not without Jehovah's maneuvering certain things. Do you get it? Prior to 1914 -> non-interference from Jehovah and His representative, the Messiah. After 1914 -> interference from Jehovah's representative, now on the throne of David.

JWs aren't looking for power, unlike other religions. Our retention may be 37% (which I don't know if that's true), but we have a slow, steady growth, so the baptisms must be outnumbering those that leave. Many with internal knowledge are remaining with Jehovah's organization.

Abraham's not coming back in 1925 was not a "doctrine." It was a well-intentioned wish of Brother Rutherford. No harm, no foul. It certainly wasn't a "prophecy!" A prophecy is new information directly from God. Rutherford nor anyone else ever said that he was getting word straight from God. All he was going by was what was already in the Scriptures and giving an educated GUESS as to when Abraham would come back. Your accusation falls flat.

I don't know. When Abraham didn't show up in 1925, a lot of JWs left the church, and they had to come up with a new name for the church. And the increase in membership is less that 1%. The "Christian" increase for China is in the range of 10% per annum. As for God's use of nations prior to 1914, the heads of the beast were used to crush the previous heads of the beast, and used to bring judgment on Judah, the Jews (Joel 5). In 1776, the starting sentence was centered around "God"/"Creator". I think God was involved in the creation of the U.S. as a standard on a hill. The Lord of Psalm 110:1 has been "at My right hand" until this day, still waiting for "thine enemies" being made into a "footstool for thy feet". In 1914, the U.S. was a sleeping lion, and not a world power. Their status was one of huge untapped resources, and an isolated landmass, with excellent internal transportation, and talented citizens. The US didn't dive into WWI until 1917. Britain won the wars holding onto the U.S. bootstraps, and just recently paid back their war loans. The wars were won by US industrialization. The WWII industrialization was organized by a guy who left home and school at the age of 14, organized the war manufacturing effort, and created the first health insurance organization to entice workers to build the Hoover Dam in which he oversaw the construction. The US wasn't crushed by a stone made without hands and is fighting the devil's spawn as we speak. It looks like the US is losing but looks can be deceiving. The JWs will probably have no part in that win. It will be the deplorables, with their guns and bibles who will win the war being now fought on the front lines by simple truckers against the Caesars/dictators of our time.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

[JehovahsWitness]

The US wasn't crushed by a stone ...

The crushing of the image of Daniel 2 is a future event (Armageddon). It is when Gods kingdom GOVERNMENT in the hands of Jesus and the 144,000 destroy all human governments.



GLOSSARY OF TERMS [END TIMES]






RELATED POSTS

Does America figure in bible prophecy?
viewtopic.php?p=1018451#p1018451

What does the stone cut from the Great mountain represent? [Daniel 2]
viewtopic.php?p=1056102#p1056102

To learn more please go to other posts related to

DANIEL'S PROPHECIES , .THE SECOND COMING * and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION

*The Return of Christ

[2ndpillar2]

The US wasn't crushed by a stone ...

The crushing of the image of Daniel 2 is a future event (Armageddon). It is when Gods kingdom GOVERNMENT in the hands of Jesus and the 144,000 destroy all human governments.




RELATED POSTS

Does America figure in bible prophecy?
viewtopic.php?p=1018451#p1018451

What does the stone cut from the Great mountain represent? [Daniel 2]
viewtopic.php?p=1056102#p1056102

To learn more please go to other posts related to

DANIEL'S PROPHECIES , .THE SECOND COMING * and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION

*The Return of Christ

The coming of the son of man follows immediately after the tribulations (Matthew 24:29), not before. The tribulations, "Jacob's distress", and the destruction of the nations, precedes the setting up of the kingdom (Jermiah 30:8-17) & (Joel 2:31-Joel 3:1-2). The restoration of Judah and Jerusaem comes directly before the judgment of the nations (Joel 3:1-2). We have had the restoration of Judah and Jerusalem, but the judgment of the nations, all at the same time (Daniel 2:45), and the return of the son of man is behind the door. The devil's demon spirit still drags the kings/leaders by their noses (Revelation 16:13). The demon spirits have yet to drag all the nations against Jerusalem to the valley of judgment (Zechariah 14:1-2). Your 144,000 JWs rule no one and remain in their graves.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #503]

Jesus' presence is with us here, even though most of the world doesn't know it (because of the failure of the churches to teach their people). He will reveal himself at the end of the Great Tribulation when the world is cognizant of his coming to rid the earth of evil, Armageddon. You need to freshen up your ideas about the timeline.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #503]

Jesus' presence is with us here

What does that even mean?

[onewithhim]

Peace to you,

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #503]

Jesus' presence is with us here

What does that even mean?

He is looking on from heaven and is very involved in end-time activities, directing his organization to finish its preaching work before the end comes (Matthew 24:14).

[JehovahsWitness]

Peace to you,

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #503]

Jesus' presence is with us here

What does that even mean?

He is looking on from heaven and is very involved in end-time activities, directing his organization to finish its preaching work before the end comes (Matthew 24:14).

Exactly. It is a wonder to me that people will argue against Jehovahs Witness position regarding Christ's presence while not even understanding what they are arguing against. I cannot see how anyone can claim to understand end time prophecy and not be familiar with the Greek word PAROUSIA.





JW

GLOSSARY OF TERMS [END TIMES]

[onewithhim]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #507]
Yes, the Greek word is "parousia" which is translated "coming" by many translations, but it means "presence." It's sad that people argue about what they don't know anything about.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #503]

Jesus' presence is with us here

What does that even mean?

He is looking on from heaven and is very involved in end-time activities, directing his organization to finish its preaching work before the end comes (Matthew 24:14).

How is that any different from the last two thousand years?

Christ is in the spiritual realm (heaven), looking on, directing His sheep in bearing witness to Him, the good news/gospel, training them, teaching them.

I asked JW about this once some time back and everything she listed were things that Christ has been doing from the first century onward.

Christ has been with us for the last two thousand years.

(edited to add in the link to that discussion: viewtopic.php?p=888205#p888205 )

Peace again.

[2ndpillar2]

... tell me who was the "another" king of Daniel 7:25, and how long was the time, times and half a time before "his dominion was taken away", and the "everlasting kingdom" was set up? And what does that "dominion" represent?

The visions of Daniel CHAPTER 7 have already been fulfilled. Daniels beast dreams present the succession of secular rulerships from his day in the 5th century BCE up to the establishment of the Kingdom in 1914. (The "times" mention have no direct relation to those of "the gentile times")

The kingdom whose rise to prominence runs right up to the setting up of the "everlasting [Messianic] kingdom", is the British empire.



The establishment of the Messianic kingdom in 1914 "took away" his right to world "domination" marking it (and all other rulerships) for destruction at Harmageddon (see Dan 7:26).

As a result of their "Great War" partnership , Britain and America would eventually form a anglo-american world power. It was this political enemy "kingdom" would persecute God's people during and after World War I.



Who are the "two witneses" of Revelation 11:3?
viewtopic.php?p=1021948#p1021948

What do the feet in Nebuchadnezzars dream symbolize?
viewtopic.php?p=1021364#p1021364


RELATED POSTS

Who are the "ten horns" of Daniel 7:7 ?
viewtopic.php?p=1031667#p1031667

How does the sequencing of Daniel and Revelation correspond?
viewtopic.php?p=1022583#p1022583

Does America figure in bible prophecy?
viewtopic.php?p=1018451#p1018451

To learn more please go to other posts related to

DANIEL'S PROPHECIES , .THE SECOND COMING * and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION

*The Return of Christ



GLOSSARY OF TERMS [END TIMES]

Your "God's people" were the Jews, and they were persecuted by Rome, in the form of the 3rd Reich (3rd Roman empire), not the U.S. and the Brits. And the "end times" is with respect to when the "shattering of the holy people... will be completed" (Daniel 12:7-13) and is dated around 1948. And after the 2nd world war, the British empire was broken up, and they were deeply in debt, for which the debt to the U.S. was just paid off recently. The main power after WWII was the U.S., with the Marxist Russia, with ties to China, being runner up in terms of world domination, with a proxy war in Korea, and then Vietnam. As for Daniel 7, the kingdoms of the beasts still exist today and yesterday. (Daniel 7:26-27) As for the "everlasting kingdom" being set up, and "all the dominions will serve and obey him", think again. (Daniel 7:27). The JWs ruling from heaven from 1914 is simply a figment of the collective imagination of the JWs.