What's the BEST (most realistic) Approach to Homosexuality?

[melikio]

This is the One Stop thread for all discussion that revolves around the issue of homosexuality.

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Please do not use our Community to in any way promote or advocate the acceptability of same-sex unions/marriage, homosexual activity, or homosexual adoption rights.

For the sake of this discussion the following definitions will be used:

Homosexual ::
A person who engages in sexual relations with members of the same gender

SSA (Same Sex Attraction) ::
A person who struggles with being attracted to members of the same gender but abstains from engaging in sexual relations with them.

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On one particular internet forum, this message is frequently posted by the site ADMIN. Not that anyone necessarily intends to advocate what is sinful, but that often, any viewpoint which even slightly mitigates the typical SINS perpetrated upon "homosexuals" (in the name of "God", "truth" or "morality") were/are often viewed as being against that site's TOS. The policy and the way it is enforced is a matter of TOS; still, I believe that approach or attitude is ultimately unhealthy and BOGUS as viewed in light of discussing things openly in the light of "truth" and "reason".

And while I will agree that it is within the site owner’s property rights to LIMIT the information which is contained there, it does (IMV) present a MASSIVE problem for Christians overall, in discussing homosexuality (as homosexuality actually affects the lives of real human beings). I used to be a member at that website; I left after some important questions (which I address below) went unaddressed and unanswered.

If so many CHRISTIANS believe that there is only one very LIMITED way to approach and/or discuss "homosexuality", then how do they/we expect to (ever) resolve the myriad issues “surrounding” the topic? I am certain people are being lost (driven away) because many "Christians" are just so "unreal".

Or is it simply that their actual “agenda” doesn’t allow for any real resolution of the problems? Does the agenda itself actually control the real opportunities for those seeking “truth” to hear and examine all sides honestly and openly? I personally think it does perpetuate the skewing of actual truth (overall).

The article here:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/1 ... cus12.html,
shows an approach to the related issues, which to me (and others) is far more realistic than the approach of the sample TOS quoted above.

Am I right or wrong, or somewhere near the "middle"?

Does anyone agree with that forum ADMIN's approach and/or related policy?

(In any case, PLEASE support your reasoning as best you can as a HUMAN BEING; just be REAL and frank, don't pretend you know more than you really do.)

-Mel-

[melikio]

We are all sinners. Heres the issue......admitting you are a sinner who often fails yet seeks Gods ways and forgiveness daily are what He wants.......sinning and having an "in your face" attitutde about it and then demanding i accept what God has called sin as "normal"....that aint cool with God.

Yes... we ARE all sinners; sinner = human.

Look, I DO NOT personally have to answer to YOU or anyone else about seeking God ways; really. And that is the "issue" I've been trying to expand upon. Just because you or anyone else are a "Christian" and believe that something should be they way you think, isn't that same thing as having the right or authority to force things to be as you desire. Too many "Christians" cannot seem to accept that as reality. It is a MASSIVE problem, that LOVE DOES INDEED ADDRESS.

If you go back to the meaning of what I said, you will see that I admit that my contention is NOT rimarily focused upon certain "Christians" or others rejecting homosexuality; my contention is with the ignorant and hateful norms which some employ in their treatment of homosexual people. And I will always contend that JESUS likely would NOT treat homosexual people in the manner which too many Christians often do. Too many desperately clamor for justification of their DEHUMANIZATION of homosexual people. And the fact that homosexual people have resisted such dehumanization, is not an afront to God; really, it's more an expression of the understanding of basic human liberty which God has afforded all human beings.

Just because someone doesn't THINK that God approves of me as a homosexual, doesn't mean that I have to redefine my whole existence to suit them. And that goes for many other things, which Christians often seem to have trouble with (as it relates to individual freedoms and liberties. Riding the backs of those you "label" as unrepentant sinners doesn't gain favor with God; in fact, it hold the one doing the "riding" liable (in the spiritual sense). No "Christian", by mere virtue of them identifying with Jesus Christ (or knowing the "Bible", has the power or authority to treat homosexual people in the manner they so often are treated.

I'm not imagining I really KNOW all that well, what's "COOL" with God. But I'm virtually certain, that Christians who HOUND and try to fix/change homosexual people, likely are NOT cool with Jesus Christ.

From everything I've ever read and understood biblically, I think Jesus would admonish those "Christians" to tend to their OWN transgressions, not particularly those of homosexuals or others perceived to be sinning.

-Mel-

[melikio]

micatala wrote:

That is exactly why I speak up against those who would treat homosexuals as second class citizens, or who would push them out of the church. The world has tolerated the evil of discrimination, abuse, and persecution of gay people long enough.

Of course; AMEN!! You've hit the nail right on its head.

I personaly cannot fathom how some DO NOT THINK that homosexual people SHOULD NOT defend their basic human rights and liberties; that they should sit passively, and allow their status as human beings to be diminished or even eliminated (if some had their EVIL way).

I used to miss church so much when I left about 5 years ago; now I sense that it was one of the best choices I ever made. Sadly, it took me most of my life and a river of tears, to understand that many Christians aren't taught to "understand" homosexual people; they are taught to "reject" them. And consequently, that SAD excuse for "love" and "compassion" that many BELIEVE they are showing gay people, is nothing any better than hatred packaged in pretty paper.

As much as Jesus has seen homosexuality amongst human beings, he also sees the kind of misguided HYPOCRISY I just pointed out, and have been a victim of countless times. Ask me why I would contend with so many believers about this (homosexuality), and I'll simply point to the horrific words and experiences most "Christians" employ when discussing of dealing with homosexual people. It's not nearly as complex, as it is sad.

But I think God has shown me that the river of tears which has led me to this keyboard tonight (and many times before), is somehow a blessing (or will be for someone).

I'll say it again, so people understand:

Many homosexuals don't seek the "approval" or "acceptance" of homosexuality by those who cannot abide it. What those who are reasonable DO SEEK, is that their God-given freedoms and liberties (associated with their pursuit of happiness), not be arbitrarily abrigded by those who seek to either CONTROL, CHANGE or OPPRESS them. And whether one sees being gay as the worst sin, just another sin or no sin at all, isn't the point. The point I'm making has to do with "Christians" assuming that they have the right or authority to negatively affect homosexual PEOPLE as they often do (in God's name); and also I am emphasizing just how hypocritical the demonization of homosexual people really has been.

-Mel-

[melikio]

Here is a story that virtually mirrors my own, in many ways.

And the myriad aspects detailed in the story illustrate some profound reasons why "Christians" who determine that they shall ride the backs of homosexuals to CHANGE them, is unkind, potentially oppressive, and often ineffective.

One day I think most ("Christian") people will accept and understand that homosexual people are a portion of God's Creation, just as life and death are. A rare few, try to deny those things.

Some may see a "gay" agenda, but the fact of the matter is that it's simply a human agenda; not something we can choose to carve select portions off of and ignore/deny the rest. It's about real things that people deal with from the day they are born, to the day their bodies are laid to rest. We can all have our beliefs and opinions; but the most substantial things we have personally are the truths we embrace. By those things we are defined; how we are as human beings.

I hope with all of my heart, that gay people never be pushed to the back-burners of any given society. Not that I would say being gay is better or worse than anything else, but to say that no one should have the right to define homosexuals in ways which infringe upon their basic human rights or liberties.

http://www.newreformation.org/storyofa.htm

-Mel-

[melikio]

http://www.newreformation.org/homo1.htm
I've seen strong and otherwise noble people, freaked out about the simple fact that homosexuality and homosexuals exist (and are common). HOMOPHOBIA and the mindsets created by it, affect even the most excellent people amongst mankind. Jesus actually sought to diffuse the effects of such "homophobia" and other things which enslave people, but I'm no longer shocked that some people reject the "freedom" to LOVE others, but instead embrace religiosity, piousness and exclusiveness. Some have essentially created Christian "clubs", and manage to interpret the Bible to suit their mistreatment of homosexual people period. Who knows how THEY see themselves, but to any fully-awake person sympathetic to the plight of homosexual people, it is clear that some have traded real "love" for their preferred norms, traditions and religious interests.

No matter how many biblical verses one may tack onto such characteristically UNSPIRITUAL approaches to "Christianity", "society" and "religion" overall, it cannot make up for the fact that people KNOW REAL LOVE when they experience it. And so much of what those most adamantly against "homosexuality" offer homosexual PEOPLE cannot be characterized or compared to the kind of love Jesus Christ showed this world by dying on The Cross.

Although moderate estimates indicate that homosexual people are a minority amongst human beings (between 3-5%), that is still a LOT of human beings. And only God knows how many in-betweeners are out here on the "down-low" (closeted gays or bisexuals).

The article linked to above makes more sense than many Christians might hear in a year's worth of Sunday sermons. It's simply a real and reasonable "Christian" approach to homosexuality, that I hope and have prayed that more and more people would consider or realize exists.

Christian people can continue to soak in the anti-gay rhetoric, hype and hysteria (homophobic thinking) generated by the far-right and others who have interest in doing so; or they can consider a more "fair" and "balanced" view of reality overall.

-Mel-

[r~]

"The only foundation for a republic is...religion. Without it there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty." ...gay marriage is outside the boundaries of what God-fearing civilizations for centuries have deemed appropriate and moral...but holding a Biblical view of moral sin is not to be equated with bigotry or homophobia, etc

History clearly shows that holding a Biblical view of moral sin is invariable equated with sexual chauvinism, racism or homophobia. All of these tyrannies have been and can be defended by Self-Righteous Bigots quoting specific Old Covenant Bible passages and interpretations that suit their own personal bigotry.

Christ’s New Covenant Command and warning cannot be stated more clearly or literally than “Thou shall not judge or persecute sinners...for in the same measure...”

Yet even now you justify the persecution of the sin of homosexuality. Please explain how this in not a blatant disregard for, and direct violation of, Christ’s own Command.

After centuries of religious tyranny, a few enlightened American Patriots realized that there is no such thing as “normal” liberty. They realized that we each have our own unique God given gifts and talents and ways of pursuing happiness. They realized that as long as the pursuit of happiness is peaceful and well regulated, it is an inalienable and God given right that cannot be justly denied.

The question is not whether religion should be a foundation for our republic; it is whether that religion should be the tyrannical God fearing Old Covenant interpretation of the Bible or the democratic God loving New Covenant of Christ interpretation of the Bible that our Founding Fathers incorporated into the Declaration of Independence.

Christ: “Love your neighbor as yourself... Do not judge or persecute sins... Render unto God, that which is God’s.”
DoI: “All are endowed equally by their Creator with rights of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.”
Christ: “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s.”
DoI: “Governments are instituted to secure these rights.”

Please tell us which of these words of Jesus Christ you would dispute or deny. Please tell us which of these words you would strike from our American moral compass?

I pray that someday you will finally see that the persecution of homosexuals bears false witness to claims of “American Patriot” or "apostle of Christ" (Christian).


ItS
r~

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising then if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15

[arayhay]

"The only foundation for a republic is...religion. Without it there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty." ...gay marriage is outside the boundaries of what God-fearing civilizations for centuries have deemed appropriate and moral...but holding a Biblical view of moral sin is not to be equated with bigotry or homophobia, etc

History clearly shows that holding a Biblical view of moral sin is invariable equated with sexual chauvinism, racism or homophobia. All of these tyrannies have been and can be defended by Self-Righteous Bigots quoting specific Old Covenant Bible passages and interpretations that suit their own personal bigotry.

Christ’s New Covenant Command and warning cannot be stated more clearly or literally than “Thou shall not judge or persecute sinners...for in the same measure...”

Yet even now you justify the persecution of the sin of homosexuality. Please explain how this in not a blatant disregard for, and direct violation of, Christ’s own Command.

your not talking about the TRUE Messiah. The Torah says to stone such a person. The One True Messiah COULD not and [Jesus] did not change the
torah to include accepting the homosexuals as they are.
I can't, and the Bible doesn't have a Messiah who is changing the Torah, in this or any other way. It is imposable, because to do so would prove that he's not the Messiah. Deut. 13

After centuries of religious tyranny, a few enlightened American Patriots realized that there is no such thing as “normal” liberty. They realized that we each have our own unique God given gifts and talents and ways of pursuing happiness. They realized that as long as the pursuit of happiness is peaceful and well regulated, it is an inalienable and God given right that cannot be justly denied.

america is not Israel.

The question is not whether religion should be a foundation for our republic; it is whether that religion should be the tyrannical God fearing Old Covenant interpretation of the Bible or the democratic God loving New Covenant of Christ interpretation of the Bible that our Founding Fathers incorporated into the Declaration of Independence.

Christ: “Love your neighbor as yourself... Do not judge or persecute sins... Render unto God, that which is God’s.”
DoI: “All are endowed equally by their Creator with rights of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.”
Christ: “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s.”
DoI: “Governments are instituted to secure these rights.”

matt. 9:2 and seeing their faith, 'Yahshua said to the man suffering from palsy, be of good cheer, your sins are forgiven'
sin is still sin, and must be forgiven.


Please tell us which of these words of Jesus Christ you would dispute or deny. Please tell us which of these words you would strike from our American moral compass?

I pray that someday you will finally see that the persecution of homosexuals bears false witness to claims of “American Patriot” or "apostle of Christ" (Christian).

this is a no-brainier; persecution of anyone makes someone a persecutor. that's it.

if it was only christians/american patriots that persecuted people you would have a strong case.


ItS
r~

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising then if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15

stone them. if they are in Israel and claim to be a covenant member only.

[r~]

arayhay:
I confess I had difficulty following your thoughts and where they lead. If my responses miss-represent what you were trying to say, please forgive me and reword them so I might better understand.

Your post is written as though you were quoting me when you were actually responding to me with your words. If you use the preview button before you submit, you can edit (move) your responses so they appear below my quote block not as my words.

if it was only christians/american patriots that persecuted people you would have a strong case.

My case is that we should treat homosexuals according to the self-evident truths as outlined in the Declaration of Independence and in Jesus’ teaching that no one has just authority to judge and persecute sinners.

Please tell me again why the persecution of sinners by anti-Christians and other tyrants makes my case less than strong.

ItS
r~

[arayhay]

arayhay:
I confess I had difficulty following your thoughts and where they lead. If my responses miss-represent what you were trying to say, please forgive me and reword them so I might better understand.

Your post is written as though you were quoting me when you were actually responding to me with your words. If you use the preview button before you submit, you can edit (move) your responses so they appear below my quote block not as my words.

if it was only christians/american patriots that persecuted people you would have a strong case.

My case is that we should treat homosexuals according to the self-evident truths as outlined in the Declaration of Independence and in Jesus’ teaching that no one has just authority to judge and persecute sinners.

Please tell me again why the persecution of sinners by anti-Christians and other tyrants makes my case less than strong.

ItS
r~

my point was that anyone can be a bigot. not just american patriots or christians.

my case is that the Bible talks, cover to cover, about the children of Israel, and what they SHOULD and SHOULDN'T do. it's not anti - Bible to judge. read paul in the book of Ro. Paul writes about the wrath of God on the unrighteous; 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse , 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man --and birds and four footed animals and creeping things.
24 - 32 continues in this scathing report on sinfulness, and then Paul, in chapter 2 says don't judge. sounds to me as though he just did, to some extent.

so there must be a distinction, a demarkation point that should be stopped at. In other words, It's not my role to judge someone's heart, or discount what might happen later in their life to change their position before The Almighty. but i am to recognize their fruit and know what it leads to.

so the bottom line is that the Bible tells Israel what they should do. if someone else takes claim to the scriptures and tries to use them as their own,ok if their in covenant with HaShem. but that's for His people only . the constitution is a separate document and should be looked at as a law to govern men as they try to life together in harmony.

[r~]

... it's not anti - Bible to judge...but i am to recognize their fruit and know what it leads to... says don't judge. sounds to me as though he just did, to some extent... so there must be a distinction, a demarkation point that should be stopped at... the constitution is a separate document and should be looked at as a law to govern men as they try to life together in harmony... my point was that anyone can be a bigot. not just american patriots or christians.

Although it may not be Old Covenant anti-Bible to judge others, it is still New Covenant anti-Christian to judge others. Recognize that the fruit of this sin leads to judgment returned in the same measure.

There is a difference between judging and identifying; between condemning and forgiving. The demarcation point is between yourself and others. Judge and condemn your own sins as you wish, but at most, identify and forgive the sins of others.

The Constitution is instituted as a means to secure the Rights of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness for All. It is not an infallible Code of Laws. Any law that violates the Inalienable Rights Retained by the People is tyranny and unjust; even if that law is incorporated into the Constitution itself; as it was with Slavery.

My point is that bigots are neither American Patriot nor Christian; no matter the claim. The Christian Spirit of “love your neighbor as yourself” and the American Spirit of “liberty and justice and equality for all” cannot be reconciled with the sin and crime of bigotry.

Only those that exalt themselves through sins of vanity and arrogance and self-righteousness would claim just authority to judge others in the name of God. Yet, they use God’s name in vain; no matter which names they use.


I am
ItS
r~

For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. Luke 14:11

[arayhay]

... it's not anti - Bible to judge...but i am to recognize their fruit and know what it leads to... says don't judge. sounds to me as though he just did, to some extent... so there must be a distinction, a demarkation point that should be stopped at... the constitution is a separate document and should be looked at as a law to govern men as they try to life together in harmony... my point was that anyone can be a bigot. not just american patriots or christians.

Although it may not be Old Covenant anti-Bible to judge others, it is still New Covenant anti-Christian to judge others. Recognize that the fruit of this sin leads to judgment returned in the same measure.

There is a difference between judging and identifying; between condemning and forgiving. The demarcation point is between yourself and others. Judge and condemn your own sins as you wish, but at most, identify and forgive the sins of others.

The Constitution is instituted as a means to secure the Rights of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness for All. It is not an infallible Code of Laws. Any law that violates the Inalienable Rights Retained by the People is tyranny and unjust; even if that law is incorporated into the Constitution itself; as it was with Slavery.

My point is that bigots are neither American Patriot nor Christian; no matter the claim. The Christian Spirit of “love your neighbor as yourself” and the American Spirit of “liberty and justice and equality for all” cannot be reconciled with the sin and crime of bigotry.

Only those that exalt themselves through sins of vanity and arrogance and self-righteousness would claim just authority to judge others in the name of God. Yet, they use God’s name in vain; no matter which names they use.


I am
ItS
r~

For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. Luke 14:11

the Bible is Israel's, not yours to divide up as you please. it's a single, cohesive book. it was the Sanhedrin's roll to execute some forms of JUDGEMENT for Israel's good.

by the way why not ask about the persecution of gossips ? God looks at them as being the same. oh ya WE don't.