Hebrews 1 and 2

[placebofactor]

The book of Hebrews was written before the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D. When Hebrews was written, only the Jews were acquainted with the Mosaic law, their traditions, and the oral law.
The Book of Hebrews was written to the Jews, had it been written to the Gentiles, not one in ten thousand could have comprehended it because of their unfamiliarity with the Jewish system.

Jesus of Nazareth is the True God: To convince the Jews, of the truth of this proposition, the writer of the book uses three arguments:
1. Christ is superior to the angels.
2. He is superior to Moses.
3. He is superior to Aaron.

Isaiah 52:13, “Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled (lifted up), and be very high.”

Christ: King of the Jews, elevated above Abraham, Moses; and the angels, all fulfilled in the Jewish Messiah. And because Christ was greater than these, he must be greater than every created being. If understood in this light, according to Jewish phraseology, Jesus is an uncreated Being, infinitely greater than all others, whether earthly or heavenly. For as the Jews allowed the greatest eminence to angels (next to the Father) the writer concludes, “That he who is greater than the angels is truly God:

Hebrews 1:6, “And let all the angels of God worship him.” This would include Lucifer, also called the devil, or Satan.

This is the point of the writer of Hebrews, be it Paul or Luke. His epistles were clear, and his proof lies in the following.

Jesus has a more excellent name than angels, including Michael and Gabriel. Hebrews 1:4, “He has by inheritance (from his Father) obtained a more excellent name than they.”

Jesus is adored by the angels Hebrews 1:6, because he created them, verse 7, “Who made his angels spirits,”

In his human nature, he was endowed with greater gifts than they. Hebrews 1:8-9.

Because Jesus is eternal: Verses 10-11: He laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of his hands: They shall perish; but he will remain.

Jesus is more highly exalted, Hebrews 1:13, the Father said to him, “Sit at my right hand,”

Angels are the servants of God, but Jesus is the Son of God. Verse 14.

The Jews were warned not to neglect Christ. Hebrews 2:1, “Give heed to the things which we (the apostles) have heard,”

A negative argument is given by Divine Revelations.
Jesus is a man, less than the angels. Hebrew 2:6. Therefore, he cannot be superior to them.

How to answer this argument: Jesus, as a mortal, by his death and resurrection, overcame all his enemies, and subdued all things to himself; therefore, he must be greater than the angels, Hebrews 2:9, “Jesus who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor: that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

Though Jesus died as a man, and was in respect, inferior to the angels; it was necessary to take on to himself the form of a man and be of the same nature as those he was to redeem; a thing he did without prejudice to his Divinity, read Hebrews 2:10-18.
He is the author and finisher of our faith and of our salvation.
Your thoughts:

[RugMatic]

Hebrews was definitely not written for Jews. Jews find it to be the most Biblically illiterate book in the New Testament. Its Old Testament quotes don't remotely resemble the Hebrew or even the Targum ( most 1st century Jews used the Aramaic Targum). It loosely resembles the Septuagint, ( which according to the Talmud the Pharisees and even the unscrupulous Sadducees despised!)
heck the quotes yourself. You'll notice they hardly resemble even a paraphrase.

The O.T quotes found in Hebrews might not resemble the Hebrew in the Tanakh but that is only because the quotations in question were not translated correctly in the King James Version. When you go back to Hebrews 1:8 there is a distinct error here in translating from the original Hebrew verse. The writer of Hebrews would surely have quoted the verse in Psalms as it was written:

"Your divine throne is everlasting," not "your throne O God." More modern translations have mistranslated, esp. the King James Version which many other versions emulate. (See the Tanakh by the Jewish Publication Society.)

I read Hebrew. I don't use the kjv too often in discussions unless its poetically appropriate.

The JPS is a paraphrase

[onewithhim]

Hebrews was definitely not written for Jews. Jews find it to be the most Biblically illiterate book in the New Testament. Its Old Testament quotes don't remotely resemble the Hebrew or even the Targum ( most 1st century Jews used the Aramaic Targum). It loosely resembles the Septuagint, ( which according to the Talmud the Pharisees and even the unscrupulous Sadducees despised!)
heck the quotes yourself. You'll notice they hardly resemble even a paraphrase.

The O.T quotes found in Hebrews might not resemble the Hebrew in the Tanakh but that is only because the quotations in question were not translated correctly in the King James Version. When you go back to Hebrews 1:8 there is a distinct error here in translating from the original Hebrew verse. The writer of Hebrews would surely have quoted the verse in Psalms as it was written:

"Your divine throne is everlasting," not "your throne O God." More modern translations have mistranslated, esp. the King James Version which many other versions emulate. (See the Tanakh by the Jewish Publication Society.)

I read Hebrew.

Then you well know that Psalm 45 does not read "Your throne O God." And in verse 9 it clearly states that the Messiah has a God. "God, YOUR God..."

(I think that the Tanakh is more than a paraphrase.)

[onewithhim]

Hebrews was definitely not written for Jews. Jews find it to be the most Biblically illiterate book in the New Testament. Its Old Testament quotes don't remotely resemble the Hebrew or even the Targum ( most 1st century Jews used the Aramaic Targum). It loosely resembles the Septuagint, ( which according to the Talmud the Pharisees and even the unscrupulous Sadducees despised!)

Check the quotes yourself. You'll notice they hardly resemble even a paraphrase.

Some quotes are outright invented. I'll show a couple.

1:6 When he brings the firstborn into the world he says,let all the angels worship him. The Septuagint actually says, " let the sons of God worship him ...for he will avenge the blood of his sons, Deuteronomy 32:43. The Dead Sea Scrolls says, worship him you gods... he will avenge the blood of his sons. Nothing about worshiping his firstborn son. Not to mention the Masoretic Text says, rejoice nations... he will avenge the blood of his servants.

10:5 Sacrifices and offerings you want not, A body have you prepared me. Psalm 40:6 actually says you have opened my ears.

The author of Hewbrews had a spotty understanding of the Old Testament. I'll show a couple of examples. 9:3,4 thinks the altar of incense is in the holy of holies with the Ark. It isn't. My favorite is 11:27 Moses left Egypt unafraid of the king, when actually he left Egypt precisely because he was afraid of the king, Exodus 2:14,15.

The author of Hewbrews was a gentile trying to flex as some prestigious Jewish associate of Timothy, 13:23,but he couldn't have been because the first generation of Christians are dead and gone by his own admission, 2:3.

Wow, I never read such nonsense. No gentile ever received the words found in Scripture. Romans 3:1-2, "What advantage then has the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them (the Jews) were committed the oracles of God." the oracles of God are his divine communication to the Jews. So, through Christ, who was a Jew, the doctrines of the gospel.

Acts 7:38, Moses, a Jew, "That was in the wilderness with the angel which spoke to him ---- who received the (living) oracles to give unto us:" Jeremiah, Daniel, Isaiah, Hosea, Micah, Habakkuk, Zackeriah, Malachi, Samuel, etc. All Jews, all from one of the 12 tribes of Israel.

I'd expect a Jew to understand the Old Testament. The author of hebrews did not, so I assume they're a gentile. Maybe it was an ignorant Jew. Possible.

That Jew was undoubtedly Paul. He understood the Hebrew Scriptures very well.

There were always Christians alive and well throughout the centuries. The "first generation" of Christians may have been gone, but there was always the next generation.

[Difflugia]

I read Hebrew.

Then you well know that Psalm 45 does not read "Your throne O God."

You're utterly wrong about the Hebrew of this verse and have been every time you've tried to engage with it. Linguistically, it's completely ambiguous:

כִּסְאֲךָ֣ אֱ֭לֹהִים עֹולָ֣ם וָעֶ֑ד

The individual words translate to [your throne][God/gods][forever][and ever]. There's no explicit verb and Hebrew is a lot more flexible than either English or Greek. "Your throne, O God, is eternal," and, "your eternal throne is God" are grammatically equivalent. The dilemma is that the former has theological problems and the latter is nonsensical.

And in verse 9 it clearly states that the Messiah has a God. "God, YOUR God..."

Your use of the word "clearly" is the equivalent of just stamping your foot. It's not clear. First, there is a similar ambiguity in the Greek of Hebrews 1:9. In Koine, ὁ θεὸς on its own can either be nominative or vocative, so there are two equally valid ways to read the verse. If the first ὁ θεὸς is nominative, then the following ὁ θεός σου is an adjectival phrase: "God [the Father], your God, has anointed you." If, on the other hand, ὁ θεὸς is vocative, then ὁ θεός σου is the nominative phrase in that sentence: "O God, your God has anointed you." Second, the context of the verse is already theologically complex, with Jesus potentially being referred to as God in a way that could equate him with the Father. This chapter is interpreted so differently by so many commentators because it's not clear at all, perhaps intentionally so. You simply claiming that it's clear doesn't somehow make it so.

Bluff and bluster aren't evidence.

(I think that the Tanakh is more than a paraphrase.)

The Tanakh is in Hebrew. The JPS is an English translation of the Tanakh. I think it's a good one, but it's no more authoritative than any other just because it's produced by a Jewish organization.

[onewithhim]

I read Hebrew.

Then you well know that Psalm 45 does not read "Your throne O God."

You're utterly wrong about the Hebrew of this verse and have been every time you've tried to engage with it. Linguistically, it's completely ambiguous:

כִּסְאֲךָ֣ אֱ֭לֹהִים עֹולָ֣ם וָעֶ֑ד

The individual words translate to [your throne][God/gods][forever][and ever]. There's no explicit verb and Hebrew is a lot more flexible than either English or Greek. "Your throne, O God, is eternal," and, "your eternal throne is God" are grammatically equivalent. The dilemma is that the former has theological problems and the latter is nonsensical.

And in verse 9 it clearly states that the Messiah has a God. "God, YOUR God..."

Your use of the word "clearly" is the equivalent of just stamping your foot. It's not clear. First, there is a similar ambiguity in the Greek of Hebrews 1:9. In Koine, ὁ θεὸς on its own can either be nominative or vocative, so there are two equally valid ways to read the verse. If the first ὁ θεὸς is nominative, then the following ὁ θεός σου is an adjectival phrase: "God [the Father], your God, has anointed you." If, on the other hand, ὁ θεὸς is vocative, then ὁ θεός σου is the nominative phrase in that sentence: "O God, your God has anointed you." Second, the context of the verse is already theologically complex, with Jesus potentially being referred to as God in a way that could equate him with the Father. This chapter is interpreted so differently by so many commentators because it's not clear at all, perhaps intentionally so. You simply claiming that it's clear doesn't somehow make it so.

Bluff and bluster aren't evidence.

(I think that the Tanakh is more than a paraphrase.)

The Tanakh is in Hebrew. The JPS is an English translation of the Tanakh. I think it's a good one, but it's no more authoritative than any other just because it's produced by a Jewish organization.

The writer of Hebrews was copying Psalm 45:6,7 and would not have changed it. To be the Jewish organization's production would mean that they are the ones that know what the passage means. Maybe they know better than you do.

How is "your eternal throne is God" nonsensical?

[Difflugia]

The writer of Hebrews was copying Psalm 45:6,7 and would not have changed it.

Nobody changed anything. The author of Hebrews was copying the Septuagint translation of Psalm 45.

To be the Jewish organization's production would mean that they are the ones that know what the passage means.

Why would they be any better at translating ambiguous Hebrew than anyone else? Does that mean that the Greek Orthodox Church is the authority on what John 1:1 means?

Maybe they know better than you do.

And I'm sure your dad could beat up my dad. Got anything else?

How is "your eternal throne is God" nonsensical?

God's not a throne.

[BrotherBerry]

[Replying to Difflugia in post #56]

I've read lots of your posts and you seem to know a lot about the Bible. Why are you interested in it? Were you a Christian?

[Tcg]

[Replying to Difflugia in post #56]

I've read lots of your posts and you seem to know a lot about the Bible. Why are you interested in it? Were you a Christian?

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[RugMatic]

Hebrews was definitely not written for Jews. Jews find it to be the most Biblically illiterate book in the New Testament. Its Old Testament quotes don't remotely resemble the Hebrew or even the Targum ( most 1st century Jews used the Aramaic Targum). It loosely resembles the Septuagint, ( which according to the Talmud the Pharisees and even the unscrupulous Sadducees despised!)
heck the quotes yourself. You'll notice they hardly resemble even a paraphrase.

The O.T quotes found in Hebrews might not resemble the Hebrew in the Tanakh but that is only because the quotations in question were not translated correctly in the King James Version. When you go back to Hebrews 1:8 there is a distinct error here in translating from the original Hebrew verse. The writer of Hebrews would surely have quoted the verse in Psalms as it was written:

"Your divine throne is everlasting," not "your throne O God." More modern translations have mistranslated, esp. the King James Version which many other versions emulate. (See the Tanakh by the Jewish Publication Society.)

I read Hebrew.

Then you well know that Psalm 45 does not read "Your throne O God." And in verse 9 it clearly states that the Messiah has a God. "God, YOUR God..."

(I think that the Tanakh is more than a paraphrase.)

I never said anything about Psalm 45. Did you read my post? In post 45 I mentioned Psalm 40.

The Jps constantly emends the Masoretic text. Sometimes it uses the Septuagint and even the Samaritan Torah! It often does this without any footnotes. Its a loose, inaccurate translation from Reform Judaism.

[Capbook]

Hebrews was definitely not written for Jews. Jews find it to be the most Biblically illiterate book in the New Testament. Its Old Testament quotes don't remotely resemble the Hebrew or even the Targum ( most 1st century Jews used the Aramaic Targum). It loosely resembles the Septuagint, ( which according to the Talmud the Pharisees and even the unscrupulous Sadducees despised!)
heck the quotes yourself. You'll notice they hardly resemble even a paraphrase.

The O.T quotes found in Hebrews might not resemble the Hebrew in the Tanakh but that is only because the quotations in question were not translated correctly in the King James Version. When you go back to Hebrews 1:8 there is a distinct error here in translating from the original Hebrew verse. The writer of Hebrews would surely have quoted the verse in Psalms as it was written:

"Your divine throne is everlasting," not "your throne O God." More modern translations have mistranslated, esp. the King James Version which many other versions emulate. (See the Tanakh by the Jewish Publication Society.)

I read Hebrew.

Then you well know that Psalm 45 does not read "Your throne O God." And in verse 9 it clearly states that the Messiah has a God. "God, YOUR God..."

(I think that the Tanakh is more than a paraphrase.)

Compare the rendering of word for word translations of Psalms 45:6, below and you will see the difference;

(ASV) Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: A sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom
(ESV) Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;
(TS2009) Your throne, O Elohim, is forever and ever; The sceptre of Your reign Is a sceptre of straightness.
(NASB95) Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.